Panel discussions will feature Rev. Pam Driesell, Rev. Julie Pennington-Russell, and Rev. Melanie Marsh, addressing some of the deepest questions women bring to us each year: How do I create healthy boundaries? How do I navigate transitions well?
our panelists
REV. PAM DRIESELL is a Pastor in Residence with Iron Sharpening Iron. She began ordained ministry in 1999 as the organizing pastor of a PCUSA church plant near Athens, Georgia, and served the Oconee Presbyterian Church until 2010, when she was called as the fourth Senior Pastor of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Atlanta.
She has served on numerous councils and commissions, including moderating the Tri-Presbytery New Church Development Commission, Princeton Institute for Youth Ministry’s formative Advisory Council, Columbia Theological Seminary Board of Trustees, and Montreat Conference Center Board of Trustees. In 2017-18 she co-led a formation group for The King Center’s Better Together Initiative, which joined Atlanta pastors diverse in denomination, race, and political ideology in the work of racial justice and community transformation.
REV. MELANIE MARSH is Transitional Pastor of Riveria Presbyterian Church in Miami, FL. Rev. Marsh comes to Riviera from Community Presbyterian Church in Atlantic Beach, where she served as senior pastor. Melanie is a child of Caribbean immigrants, a lifelong Presbyterian and a native of Central Florida. She holds a BFA in Theatre and Dance from Florida State University and an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary.
Before going into Ministry, she worked in the performing arts, arts education and community activism in Florida and Southern California. She has three young children who love all things outdoors. Rev. Marsh and her family are looking forward to their new home and schools and exploring Miami.
REV. JULIE PENNINGTON-RUSSELL has served as Senior Minister of the First Baptist Church of the City of Washington, DC since January of 2016. Before coming to Washington, she led churches in Decatur, GA; Waco, TX and San Francisco, CA, and was the first woman to serve as senior pastor of a Baptist church in the state of Texas. Julie earned her B.A. from the University of Central Florida in Orlando and her M.Div. from Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary in Mill Valley, Calif.
Julie is a pilgrim on the contemplative path and is co-director of the Clergy Spiritual Life and Leadership Program for the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington, D. C. As a spiritual director, Julie loves “companioning” people as they become more and more attuned to God’s Spirit in their spirit.
CREATING HEALTHY BOUNDARIES
NAVIGATING TRANSITIONS WITH INTEGRITY
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Thais Carter: Alright! Welcome, everyone! We have folks coming in from the waiting room for those of you who are new to iron, sharpening iron and a special welcome to each of you. Iron sharpening iron is known primarily as an executive leadership program for women clergy, but we are so excited to actually be
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Thais Carter: focused on building a broader network of women for whom their faith deeply informs their leadership, whether that is in a ministry context or elsewhere. One of the fundamental things that we believe in iron. Sharpening iron is that to lead successfully is to lead sustainably that just because you check all 100 things off your to do list.
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Thais Carter: If you feel like you just can’t function. At the end of that you were not, in fact, successful. And so many of our offerings are really focused on resourcing
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Thais Carter: women and pastors and lay leaders to think about how they can take care of themselves in the midst of doing this beautiful and important work. So this 2 part series, living in liminal spaces, comes directly from requests of women who are in the program right now, who have lifted up the conversations around creating healthy boundaries and navigating transitions
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Thais Carter: is something that feels deeply important to them, being able to do that successful, sustainable work.
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Thais Carter: So today we are so fortunate that we have a lovely group of wise guides to take us into this conversation, part of how we are going to set this up. So a couple just notes on instructions. I, because it’s lunchtime for many of us.
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Thais Carter: I am going to encourage everybody to go ahead and shut off your video. You can eat. You can, just, you know, do what you need to do. But that way you don’t feel any pressure to turn your video on. If you are, in fact, enjoying this as a lunch and learn situation.
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Thais Carter: If you have questions that come up throughout, you should feel comfortable. Putting all of those in the chat. I will be keeping track of those, and when we have our 15 min specifically for audience QA. At the end, we’ll be able to lift those back up and also encourage you to come back
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Thais Carter: on video and off mute to share your question. If that’s a more comfortable way to put that into the space.
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Thais Carter: we are not going to have a lot of time dedicated to reading the full, wonderful bios of our panelists. I will put the link in the chat that will take you to the page that has all of that laid out.
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Thais Carter: But I do wanna offer just a simple word of introduction before turning things over. So some of you have had the opportunity to meet Reverend Pam Drill, Pam has been an ordained ministry since 1999, but is now serving as minister at large for the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.
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Thais Carter: Pam brings such a great breadth and depth of experience, including her time as senior pastor of Trinity, Presbyterian Church in Atlanta, and service on numerous councils and commissions. We are honored to have her serve as one of the pastors in residence for iron, sharpening iron. She offers mentoring to participants creativity to the leadership team and a sense of wonder in every worship service that she leads.
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Thais Carter: And Pam is just a gift to this program and has been a wonderful. Conversation partner, in creating the conversation that we’re going to have together over the next 2 days
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Thais Carter: Reverend Melanie Marsh is currently the transitional pastor of Riviera Presbyterian Church in Miami, Florida, and she comes from Community Presbyterian Church in Atlantic Beach, where she serves a senior pastor, Melanie is a child of Caribbean immigrants, a lifelong Presbyterian, and a native of Central Florida.
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Thais Carter: Reverend Julie Peddington. Russell has served as senior minister of the First Baptist Church of the City of Washington, DC. Since January of 2016, and before coming to Washington she led churches in Decatur, Georgia, Waco, Texas, and San Francisco, California, and was the first woman to serve as senior pastor of a Baptist church in the State of Texas.
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Thais Carter: We are so lucky to have the fullness of the experience that these women bring to the table. So again, I encourage you, feel free to turn your video off, encourage you to just listen to the wonderful conversation. And with that, Pam, I will turn things over to you.
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PamDriesell: Thank you, Taiz, for those great introductions, and for all the work that you do to pull us together.
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PamDriesell: I am so excited to be with you all, and and know that this is kind of the post Easter
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PamDriesell: exhale time. So hope that this
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PamDriesell: can just be a time for you to sit back and relax and engage this conversation at whatever level is most helpful for you.
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PamDriesell: I’m so excited to have this conversation with Julie and Melanie. We have been just kind of thinking as we’ve been doing our lives together about these topics and so we’re gonna just have a conversation. And as Tye said. We, you know, put questions or things you want maybe to delve into a little bit deeper into the chat, and we’ll have time at the end for that. I wanted to start as as it is, you know.
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PamDriesell: Providence, Young calls it. What’s the sarin synchronicity? A friend sent me a article this week by Roxanne Gay, which was essentially on boundaries called Standards of Care.
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PamDriesell: and in the
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PamDriesell: you know spirit of. We read to know we’re not alone. This is Roxanne Gay, and this will kick us off, she says, and and
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PamDriesell: excuse me if the language offends, but it’s hers. Not that I don’t ever use it. I tolerate a lot of bullshit, and I hate it.
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PamDriesell: I say yes, when I want to, and absolutely should say No.
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PamDriesell: I say no, and someone refuses to take note for an answer, sees it as a negotiating tactic instead of a complete sentence, and eventually they wear me down, and I end up saying yes to something I have neither the time nor inclination to do.
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PamDriesell: Then I ran to my wife, mostly saying things like, How dare they not take? No for an answer? How dare they? I over commit and over, commit and sink further into a cesspool of missed deadlines and broken promises. I grind my molars to flat little nubs, wondering why no one ever respects my boundaries or listens to me, or just hears my no, and takes me at my word. And while I am getting worked up.
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PamDriesell: absolutely seething with frustration, I forget
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PamDriesell: that I am playing a part in this.
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PamDriesell: So that’s what we’re talking about today is our own kind of reflection on the parts that we play. None of us gets boundaries right? 100% of the time. I think it’s an ongoing
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PamDriesell: spiritual discipline to reflect on these things and to adjust but I wanted to start. Melanie and Julie. We’ve both. We’ve all 3 been thinking about like what is a boundary to you. What what does that mean to you. It’s a word that gets thrown around a lot. But talk to me about what it means to you.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah, well, I guess I can. I can start. And I have to say right off the bat that that
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Melanie Marsh: piece by Roxane Gay, just like
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Melanie Marsh: I deeply resonate. With all of that I feel like in the ministry life.
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Melanie Marsh: and as a mother, and as a person who identifies as a 7 on the Ennogram I start at. Yes, always for everything, and it’s not usually until
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Melanie Marsh: my body starts to revolt against all the yeses that I have said that I realize that I should have probably said a few more noes but in terms of the definition of a boundary.
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Melanie Marsh: I think essentially for me. It’s like
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Melanie Marsh: the deal breakers in your life and in your ministry. And knowing that
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Melanie Marsh: those things sometimes have to be fluid, our boundaries have to be a little bit permeable, but, like, for example, I don’t work on Friday. I don’t work on Friday. Don’t ask me to come and teach a class to your Bible study on Friday, because I’m probably not gonna do it.
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Melanie Marsh: And yes, if you’re
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Melanie Marsh: partner goes into the hospital on a Friday afternoon I will come and visit you, and I will pray with you. But if you need me to do some sort of administrative or other type of work. I’m gonna try my very best not to do that on a time when I’m trying to take Sabbath for myself.
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Melanie Marsh: That’s kind of my definition.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: That’s so great.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Well, so I my goodness, boundaries! For 40 years I’m in my almost in my fortieth year of ministry and boundaries has been one of the Big 5, probably for every one of those 40 years. And his Pam said, it’s it’s nothing we ever get perfectly right. But we aim, you know, so so for me, a a boundary. Boundaries in general are a form of self. Care
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Julie Pennington-Russell: for me. I think of them that way, you know. Sometimes we think about
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Julie Pennington-Russell: boundaries as things we we impose on other people. You know, I’m setting a boundary. But but actually, the more I think about it
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Julie Pennington-Russell: these days. Boundaries are things that I set for myself so that I can name what makes me comfortable. What makes me uncomfortable, so I can sort of name what my response may be when a boundary is crossed.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I. I live by this axiom, that the the greatest thing I have to offer my family, my church, my community of the world, is a whole and healthy Julie and I, you know, because I believe that deeply, and I didn’t always believe it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: You know there was a time when I believed that as a 3 on the Enniogram, you know, I those red check marks by the to do, to do to do you know I produce? Therefore I am. Yeah. You know, those were so important and even more important than my health and wholeness, and I don’t believe that anymore. I’ve I’ve made that essential shift, and I wish I’d made it earlier. But
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Julie Pennington-Russell: you know we make it when we make it perfect.
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Melanie Marsh: It’s never too late to make that shift
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Melanie Marsh: like that’s a work in progress for me, for sure. Feels very inspiring.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Huh!
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PamDriesell: Definitely what one of the things early in my ministry?
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PamDriesell: I really reflected on boundaries as I mean this this some, but like just the theology of like in creation.
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PamDriesell: You know there is. It’s like where something stops and something else starts. And I think for me that
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PamDriesell: that has. That’s just been a good metaphor like. And
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PamDriesell: I I by the way, I mean, this is just, you know, I I’ve always felt that everybody in a helping profession should be in therapy, so I have no stigma attached to that. But I have this great young and therapist, and
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PamDriesell: particularly when I was in a large church, where you know you can get so caught up in what’s your persona, what what everybody else is projecting on to you that you are or should be, and he always started every session with, what is your relationship to your persona today?
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PamDriesell: And to me that was it was a really
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PamDriesell: great way of of
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PamDriesell: acknowledging where boundaries had when I was not sure like, Oh, I’m actually not the persona like there is
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PamDriesell: a me that is separate from that. And when those boundaries get so intertwined, and I I’m not aware of those differences. I know I’m in trouble.
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PamDriesell: And the other thing that very early on in my was the notion of margins.
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PamDriesell: and I don’t even remember I read this in some book. But it was. This was back in the day. Many of you are so young you don’t remember, like real typewriters where you would, you would actually have a margin on a paper, and if you went over that margin your letters literally would fall off the page.
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PamDriesell: And my children were were very young, and I remember one morning, you know, one of them spilled yogurt or something, and it nearly undid me.
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PamDriesell: and I recognize like that’s because there is no margin in my life. So you put one little letter in the middle, and everything falls off the edges. And so for me, that became an important image of like.
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PamDriesell: Is there? Is there a margin around my life? So that, like you were saying, Melanie, when when something does come up that you have to attend to that. Maybe in theory, kind of violates a boundary. It doesn’t mean everything falls off the edge.
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PamDriesell: so that’s that’s been a helpful thing for me.
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Melanie Marsh: Right.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Is so great.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah,
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PamDriesell: Any one of the things. Also that we’ve been
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PamDriesell: Thinking about in in our own lives is what have been some of the challenges.
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PamDriesell: To the greatest challenges you’ve faced in in
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PamDriesell: setting the boundaries
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PamDriesell: or creating boundaries.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah. I mean, I think, Pam, what you just said about creating the margin is still one of the greatest challenges, and it’s a it’s sometimes like very little things, you know, like scheduling your day where you may need to have, you know.
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Melanie Marsh: 5 different important conversations. But you, if you go back to, back, to back, to back to back. And then one of those things kind of goes a little bit longer than you expect it to. Your whole day is ruined, and you end up kind of pulling your hair out. So that’s that’s a constant like day to day maintenance sort of challenge. But I think in the in the larger picture
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Melanie Marsh: one of the big boundaries I had to learn to navigate early on was as a young minister and a young professional just going out of seminary and into the ministry world. I was in a town. I didn’t know a new place with just my family as the people that I knew in that place.
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Melanie Marsh: and I didn’t have any kind of community of friends or real colleagues outside of the church where I worked, and so I befriended
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Melanie Marsh: one of my colleagues at the church that I was at who I actually supervised. So I was her direct supervisor.
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Melanie Marsh: and that made for a very tricky kind of work relationship. Now that we had become friends, because, as time went on, you know, there were times when I had to give essential correction in that relationship, and eventually I had to sort of gently encourage her to move on from that role and move on from the church, and that
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Melanie Marsh: process was made infinitely more difficult than it needed to be, because we were also friends outside of work.
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Melanie Marsh: And we navigated it, and it worked out, and the person went on from the job and we stayed friends. But
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Melanie Marsh: I just feel like we in life. Our lives are hard enough. Our lives are hard enough as fast as we don’t have to complicate them with things like that. And it made me realize, I think, in hindsight. And as I moved on and learned from that experience that it’s really important to cultivate
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Melanie Marsh: community outside of work when we are in a role like a pastor, because, having meeting that need for ourselves among our staff is not
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Melanie Marsh: the. It’s not an ideal situation, and it’s probably not considered a best practice, and it really can be detrimental to our own
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Melanie Marsh: thriving as we move through.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: You know, Melanie, that
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PamDriesell: that
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PamDriesell: just reminds me that there oftentimes, when we say boundaries, we we immediately think of time.
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PamDriesell: But you know, there’s also this emotional boundaries.
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PamDriesell: and I think those are more nuanced, and particularly as pastors like.
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PamDriesell: Of course, we have kind of a friendship with people. But what you know just kinda recognizing. And I think taking getting a read on what those lines are on a regular basis.
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Melanie Marsh: Exactly and kind of figuring out how far we can let people in to our lives and to our circle. When we also have this kind of pastoral or supervisor relationship with them.
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Melanie Marsh: And my my boss at that time was really good about setting that boundary. She’s like we are great colleagues. I, you know, love you as a as a colleague, and you know, we’re gonna work really well together. But
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Melanie Marsh: we’re not going to be hanging out at the like, at at the baseball game together, or out for drinks in the evening together, because we don’t need to emesh in that way. Yeah.
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PamDriesell: Yeah. And and I don’t think there, Julie, I’m only I I for me. There’s not like hard and fast rules that make that easy, and I think it’s different for different people.
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PamDriesell: I don’t know. For me. I think it’s more about a consciousness
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PamDriesell: that I bring to relationships that and different people can handle different levels of
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PamDriesell: it’s it’s just very nuanced. And again, I think, in terms of for me, the best practice is not necessarily a re, a rule that I have. But it’s a consciousness around it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I well, segueing, that was a beautiful segue, for the the thing that I feel is one of the greatest challenges for me is is exactly that it’s achieving balance. You know the and and almost always my challenges have to do with pastoral care.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Because that’s the thing for which I feel, you know, the deepest responsibility to the congregation. Like like you, said Melanie. The administrative things on my Sabbath day, you know I can easily let go. Those will be there tomorrow, you know.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Somebody goes into the hospital, has a crisis cause I you know. Then then I, you know, achieving balance there can can be difficult. But I I think that boundary setting is, is not something you set up, and it remains fixed for all time for all situations, and so that constant discernment that we have to practice, you know. Sometimes I think about boundary setting as an infinity loop.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Because there there can be seasons when I just feel that my congregation needs special attention. And and I, you know, really get in there and and you know, sometimes it goes on for for a little while. Sometimes there are seasons when I really feel like I need
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Julie Pennington-Russell: special care, and so I I can step back. But but it’s it’s not always predictable. And often it shifts. And so just discerning when those times can be
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Julie Pennington-Russell: One practice that I have that sort of helps me maintain balance on a weekly basis. This is something I started doing when I was very young in ministry, and I actually did it physically on a paper calendar that I used to keep. That’s sort of when I started. We had the paper day planners, you know. You would open it up.
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Melanie Marsh: Film, James.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Oh, yeah, yeah, so. But but so what I would do physically. And now I just do it mentally when somebody would reach out and say, Hey, can we get together? Can we have coffee? I need to come see you blah blah blah I would take stock, and next to that name I would put a a T a an F or a d.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: F stands for fills me
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Julie Pennington-Russell: D stands for drains me.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and you know, I would make appointments during the week, and of course you.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Of course you make appointments with people who drain you. I mean, you know you’re you’re their pastor, too. My goal would be to look at my calendar, and to make sure that I had at least a few more f’s fulfills me than D’s for dramy, so that I, you know, was sort of balancing out because we have. We have often
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Julie Pennington-Russell: some real agency when it comes to setting our calendars, we get to say, Yes, I’ll do this. No, I do that. So it it kind of helped me to balance out. I could never have a week with nothing but drains me, drains me, drains me, and still have something left for Sunday. So so that was, you know. And now just sort of in my mind. I can sort of navigate that on my calendar, but
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Julie Pennington-Russell: that was helpful.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah, that’s hugely helpful.
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PamDriesell: I mean I love that Julie.
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Melanie Marsh: I’m gonna borrow that damn.
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PamDriesell: Why didn’t I?
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Melanie Marsh: Oh! Is it.
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PamDriesell: I mean, I I kind of wanna go back to challenges and stuff. But this is. And again, this is just a conversation. This Co. Goes into our next question. But I have to build on that to say that
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PamDriesell: one of the moments of my that I consider like my least
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PamDriesell: successful moment. Let’s just call it a big, you know, F with the you know it’s it was a big fail and in in terms of boundaries. And it was around that
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PamDriesell: it was giving too much oxygen in my calendar, in my brain, in the Ca, to the negatives, to the people who were draining to the people the the small group of people who weren’t happy.
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Melanie Marsh: Hmm.
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PamDriesell: It was a. It was a small group, but I gave them so much more oxygen, and I didn’t balance out, you know, them with
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PamDriesell: with the people who were you know, energizing me and and and collaborating in positive ways. And so, wow, yeah, that’s a terrific practice.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah. Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: Fantastic.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Another challenge for me. I will say, and it and it is related to the the pastoral care issue one of my challenges. My whole pastoral life has been just dealing with guilt about saying, you know, in order to say yes to myself.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I necessarily must say no, to some things, and sometimes to some people in moments that feel like, Oh, gosh! I know they need me, and I’ve worked. You know. I’ve worked 70 h week this week, and I just can’t
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Julie Pennington-Russell: do that. And so you know, dealing with feelings of guilt has been a real challenge for me. I don’t really have a trick for that. I you know I sit with it. I you know, I pray with it. I
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Julie Pennington-Russell: but I just need to name that.
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Melanie Marsh: I think that is completely true for me, too. I remember when I was taking this
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Melanie Marsh: position, this call into the church that I’m at now. One of the questions that the com asked me as I was coming in was, You know I, the reality of my life is, I am a single mother of 3 youngish children. And now I’m also gonna be pastoring this congregation. And they said, You know, what what are you going to do to like. Make sure you can serve in this congregation well, and serve the press very well. And I said, Well, you know, I think that the the reality that I sit with.
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Melanie Marsh: and that I’m going to have to make clear to everyone else is
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Melanie Marsh: I’m gonna be disappointing someone every single time every single day. You know, there’s one of me. There’s a bajillion of y’all, and somebody is gonna be disappointed, and I have to sort of juggle those balls and figure out who is the one that’s gonna be disappointed at any given moment, and try my best to make sure that it’s not always my children, because I don’t want them to grow up presenting me and hating the church.
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Melanie Marsh: And I’m gonna try to make sure that it is not always the the congregation, so that I keep my job, and that it’s not always me, so that I survive and so trying to like navigate those 3 sectors all the time. But knowing that and just naming that like you said.
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Melanie Marsh: you’re going to be disappointed sometimes. I’m not going to show up to your meeting, and you’re going to wish that I had. But yeah, we. We have to prioritize
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Melanie Marsh: other things, and I see in the chat from a couple of people like. We can’t always let our children be the ones that are disappointed because we have to commit to our job. And that was a thing that really weighed heavily on me in my previous call in Jacksonville it felt like a lot of my time was being devoted to the church and my kids, my family as a whole, we’re getting the shortest end of every stick.
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Melanie Marsh: And so I’ve had to shift that a lot in this current call. And I I feel like we’re getting better at that balance, although it’s still still not perfect.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I I so I may. I jump in just to piggyback? Exactly. You just name something brilliant, and I, you know.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so
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Julie Pennington-Russell: naming, naming what it is that you need, naming what it is that you’re doing, and in a sense, bringing your congregation into this lovely plan for health and wholeness for yourself, because what I have found is that we have congregations full of people who are looking to do the very same thing for themselves.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I mean, here in Washington there are nothing but people who are getting eaten alive by their jobs. And you know, looking for someone to say, here’s a way, here’s a way through. Here’s a help. So so it is so brilliant, Melanie to
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Julie Pennington-Russell: to name that. For when people email, me and I email them back on my email signature. I have. You will see Sabbath day, Colon Thursday.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: And so you know, they email with me enough. They will notice. Oh, Thursdays or Sabbath day, and and I could take a Sabbath day, too, you know. So yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: That is so true. And I I love that kind of like email disclaimer on your, on all of your emails. I noticed when I first got here by administrator who’s actually on this zoom call right now. She has a thing at the bottom of her email address that says, I will not always answer your email right away if I if it comes to me at these times. But I try to prioritize joy over email whatever I can.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Beautiful.
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Melanie Marsh: I didn’t, so.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Beautiful.
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Melanie Marsh: And I encourage.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Nas.
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Melanie Marsh: Same. So if you can’t write back to me right away, that’s okay, too. I just am loved that, and felt so inspired for that, and embraced it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: That’s beautiful. I.
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PamDriesell: I do concur. I think that
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PamDriesell: it’s just on so many levels and in so many areas. The temptation of the church is to reflect
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PamDriesell: the issues of the world instead of to have this kind of countercultural right. So the frenetic kind of you know I prove my worth through how busy I am and how you know hard it is to get a hold of me now. And you know so I think those kinds of things where you’re you’re actually modeling like.
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PamDriesell: no, I’m I’m trying. I’m doing my best to create something different. And
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PamDriesell: I was going to say, for you know another thing that I’ve
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PamDriesell: years ago, I decided like.
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PamDriesell: I just maybe it’s because I was constantly failing at at creating balance
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PamDriesell: that I couldn’t. I couldn’t deal with that metaphor anymore like, and actually the the revelation came to me when I was on like a
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PamDriesell: leadership seminar. And we got on one of those huge like group seesaws.
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PamDriesell: and we were trying to balance it. And like you, you balance something for just a second and like a breath, and it gets out of balance again.
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PamDriesell: So I was looking for a different metaphor. And to your point. The the person who said, I prioritize joy, I I
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PamDriesell: begin to look at my my goal, not as balance, but as as a a rhythm
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PamDriesell: that could fluctuate. Kind of what you were saying, Julie, like there’s times kind of the infinity circle right? Like there’s times when.
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PamDriesell: Yeah, there’s the the tempo is fast the but I guess the the question that where I can kind of discern, if my life is in a good place, is not? Is it balanced? But am I dancing? Is there a sense of joy. Is there a rhythm that is healthy and and and you know I I don’t know. I think joy is so undervalued in our calls right like
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PamDriesell: so for me, that kind of
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PamDriesell: notion of of dancing, the other thing for me, the challenges, and I think different personalities have different challenges around boundaries, and
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PamDriesell: a lot of us are, but not all of us are. You know I’m I’m such a I’m a 7. I’m a people pleaser I start with? Yes, I wanna you know
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PamDriesell: And I have always hung on to this quote from Mother Teresa, who said, You know.
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PamDriesell: she she saw so many people who, in her vocation, who had
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PamDriesell: said Yes to the call, and then thought that their call was to serve God and please people.
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PamDriesell: and she realized for herself
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PamDriesell: the distinction of no, the call is to please God and serve people.
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PamDriesell: And
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PamDriesell: that’s always been a helpful, just kind of okay. Wait. What am I doing right now? Is this really.
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PamDriesell: you know, a deeply pleasing thing to the God who has called me? Or is this me trying to make everybody around me happy.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Absolutely.
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Melanie Marsh: Important distinction to make.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: It really is. It really is you? You use the word rhythm? A minute ago, Pam. And I I think for me that that the Biblical image that is sort of sustained me in this quest for boundary drawing is that rhythm of Jesus the rhythm of advance and retreat
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and retreat. There’s this wonderful story. I think, is it Matthew? And other synoptics where Jesus is? You know he’s healing. He’s teaching. He’s blah blah, you know, and at the end of the day this really long, crazy day he’s he’s gathered in a a you know, in a house, and he’s he’s healing, and the whole town, you know, has come out, and and somebody comes to him and says, Julie, I mean Julie.
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Melanie Marsh: There!
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, it was us.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: wow, that word.
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Melanie Marsh: Like it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Jesus. Everybody’s looking for you. Everybody needs you. And you know, and what does he do? He goes up into the hills.
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Melanie Marsh: Not onto the boat. He’d.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: You know, it’s just so. So it’s really, you know, sort of this, this, this rhythm of advance and retreat, and in and out, like the tides, like your breath, like you’re all those.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: you know, organic things that have such wisdom and.
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Melanie Marsh: Cause, Pam, I think you’re right. I think that notion that we have to keep it perfectly balanced like we are on a tight rope feels so tense, you know. Like, if you’re trying to maintain like absolute balance of everything per perfect perfection. We’re never gonna attain that. But I think that gentle kind of ebb and flow feels like a much better metaphor in my mind for the the way in which our our lives can be sustainable.
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PamDriesell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: yeah, I think what one of the things that happened to me was that I realized like I was spending so much energy
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PamDriesell: on trying to balance, whereas, like the the flow of rhythm, didn’t feel like I had to like focus on getting in like it. It was just like, am I in a good rhythm? And you know I think I went to my music director, and I can’t remember the exact phrase. It was much more for those of you who are musical. This is probably all screwed up, but you know she was like
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PamDriesell: rhythm is like the pattern of the sound and silence, sound and silence so similar to your notion of advance, retreat! Forward! Retreat, you know it’s like, are there the are there the moments between all the mo emot, all the motion and sound in my life, that is, that is silent. And you know those moments come differently again. I have friends who are like so disciplined. And I admire them.
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PamDriesell: But I got to a point in my life where I was like, I’m just not the person who’s gonna do the same thing every morning every day. You know it just doesn’t. That’s not how I function.
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PamDriesell: And I had to give myself the grace to say, hey? Well, maybe there’s a different way. Not not this like, I always do this on this day at this time. But you know, am I regularly creating a rhythm that is life giving and for me and for those around me.
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Melanie Marsh: Man.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Love, that.
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PamDriesell: The other. Just last thing I had also thought about was a challenge to boundaries is perfectionism.
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PamDriesell: And you know, that’s
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PamDriesell: I just then the practice of I don’t know again. So so many of these things were formed in me when I was a young mother, you know, like trying to do ministry and motherhood and everything but just. And I had read the book, the good enough parent and I that that
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PamDriesell: that kind of as a mantra like the good enough. The good enough like that’s oh, it’s enough, really is. Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: Be, especially because if we are truly people of faith, we have to
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Melanie Marsh: understand and acknowledge that, like
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Melanie Marsh: our port, our portion of the work that needs to be done in order for something to happen effectively is only part of what needs to be done. There’s the spirit also needs to be able to move within us. And if we are trying to like
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Melanie Marsh: engineer to the very limit of everything, all of the stuff that we
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Melanie Marsh: create and put out into the world. There is no room in there for the spirit to move. That’s a reminder. I have to keep on giving myself all the time, especially when I get to like sermon writing, and things like that is like
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Melanie Marsh: this is gotta be good enough for now, some, somehow, some way the spirit is gonna move in the midst of this in the moment. And I’m going to say the thing that needs to be said. And the people are, gonna hear and receive the thing that they need to hear and receive in this moment. And I mean.
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Melanie Marsh: have faith that that’s gonna happen.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Melanie, that is deep wisdom. It really is.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: you. You have just reminded me. I I pulled aside this little book.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: right before we got on, and you may have it already. I keep
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I I have like 4 copies. I keep them everywhere. I keep them. Anyway. William C. Martin, the the art of pastoring, and he’s someone he who’s a spiritual director. I think he’s a Methodist minister and very, very much also attuned to east the Eastern practices. Of the data Ching. And so he wrote this wonderful. They’re like little wisdom sayings for pastors.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and that sort of eats East meets West, and this is the this is the one that I have circled many times, he he writes this little saying, and then he has an observation, and, if I may, it’s very brief. This one is called rest.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and it is.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: If you fill your calendar with important appointments, you will have no time for God.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: If you fill your spare time with essential reading, you will starve your soul.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: If you fill your mind with worry about budgets and offerings.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: the pains in your chest and the ache in your shoulders will betray you.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: If you try to conform to the expectations of those around you, you will forever be their slave.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Work a modest day, then step back and rest.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: This will keep you close to God.
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PamDriesell: Hmm! And then.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: The observation. The observation is my favorite part. He says, one of the first things I do when I begin a spiritual direction with someone
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Julie Pennington-Russell: is to is to start with the his or her daily planner their calendar. It reveals volumes about what the pastor’s spiritual condition is, what the what the pastor values, fears and their ambitions. It tells me who their bosses are, who their lover is, and how much value they place on their own soul.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: If you are working more than 50 HA week, you’re not doing it for God, no matter how eloquent your rationalizations.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: It just
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Julie Pennington-Russell: loved that so.
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PamDriesell: Wow!
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PamDriesell: That reminds me of the an Annie Dillard quote. That I love, which is how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yes.
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PamDriesell: So that looking at the calendar, and you know you can say, well, you know, when when the
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PamDriesell: building campaign is over, when this is over when we, you know it’s like.
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PamDriesell: but I think the real challenge to this kind of boundaries is in the everyday. And what does your daily what does your calendar look like.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Rye.
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Melanie Marsh: Right, and in a world where we are taught that there is never enough. There’s never enough of anything, you know, never enough stuff, never enough of our time. We’re spending on XY. And Z. We are never enough, just as we are, I think, saying enough in any sector of our lives is a radical, and you know.
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Melanie Marsh: spiritual act.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: I I I do. Wanna just say right now,
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PamDriesell: how frickin hard this is.
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PamDriesell: Yeah. Like to to actually to say, you know. And I can remember moments, you know, where
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PamDriesell: my husband would be like. I’m watching
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PamDriesell: you.
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PamDriesell: It. It’s like watching a train that’s about to crash, you know, and I can. Okay, you you
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PamDriesell: I I remember literally opening my calendar and going. You tell me which one of these people I say no. To
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PamDriesell: which was my own aggression towards just my own inability to
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PamDriesell: discern to, to maybe actually let someone down. My confusion about pleasing people versus pleasing got, I mean, so all of that. But I I guess I just wanna say like, it’s so.
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PamDriesell: These words and these concepts make so much sense. They resonate deeply. They are very difficult to execute.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Are.
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Melanie Marsh: A 100% 100.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, percent.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah.
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PamDriesell: I I just wanted to move unless to.
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PamDriesell: I had shared kind of out of order my less than successful thing about just giving too much option it it may. I wanted each of you to have the opportunity to kind of reflect on when we’re sometimes
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PamDriesell: that you know, in retrospect you go. Oh, man, I really did not hold the boundaries there. And what were some of the impact, for example, for me? The impact of, you know, kinda giving so much oxygen to the
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PamDriesell: the small group of people. But a it was exhaustion on my part, like, just absolutely I was not dancing. I was not joyful, I mean I was exhausted
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PamDriesell: and depleted, and I think the other thing in terms of the impact on the community was that it created confusion.
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PamDriesell: You know, like it, it just there was. There was a period of confusion around that like wait. These people are so negative and so wait. Why are why are they getting all the attention? So a. A. Anyway, I’d be interested to hear some of your reflections on
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PamDriesell: times when when you just felt like I didn’t. I didn’t quite get that one.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I’m happy to
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Julie Pennington-Russell: share I
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00:56:46.150 –> 00:57:11.979
Julie Pennington-Russell: in in a previous church. I we went through a season of significant conflict. Budgets staffing, you know, and then it very personal kinds of of conflict, we and so I was on the receiving end of email campaigns and social media attacks from unhappy congregants.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah. And and it got to the point where the act of turning on my computer became a traumatic practice for me. And I knew that
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Julie Pennington-Russell: something had to had to shift and I think I think the low point was the morning after a very painful Congregational meeting. It was probably like 4 in the morning, and when I woke up my pillow was soaking wet from tears. I mean I was crying in my sleep and didn’t, didn’t actually realize it, and
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00:57:46.710 –> 00:57:50.279
Julie Pennington-Russell: thought I was having a heart attack in my chest, and my husband got up.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and and I said all I could say was, Will you please pray for me?
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Julie Pennington-Russell: And I was still in bed, and he, you know he knelt down by the side of the bed and offered this very tender prayer. And but it it was. It was a low, it was really a a moment for me.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So what I what I had to do with regard to the email piece, an email. Oh, we could have a whole course on email. And what that does to us. Or and now texting, and socially, there are more ways for people to reach us. But but
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I I had to let our congregation know. I named this healthy practice that our staff had already put in place, and the practice was, we will generate no email with negative emotional content.
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00:58:40.120 –> 00:58:55.950
Julie Pennington-Russell: If something has negative emotional content. It warrants an in person conversation. And so that’s what we practice with each other. And so I let the congregation know that. I needed to honor that in the congregation, and that my
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Julie Pennington-Russell: my! A administrative assistant, would now be receiving my emails, and she would read them, and she would forward to me all of the emails that had no emotional negative content. And so that was a hub. It was. It was like a life preserver. I was sending myself, and and then I got off of social media for a time. You know, I came back eventually. But
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00:59:18.820 –> 00:59:37.839
Julie Pennington-Russell: so you know, that was. That’s just one very tangible boundary that I remember setting, you know, you know, but it had gotten to the place where I was drowning, and you know, had gone through several antidepressants and had to keep changing them up because they weren’t working. And just.
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00:59:37.860 –> 00:59:46.969
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know. And so boundary setting became something that was just essential or get out. You know, it’s kind of at that place.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Nuts.
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Melanie Marsh: Wow, I.
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PamDriesell: Go ahead, Melanie, I go ahead.
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Melanie Marsh: No, I I mean, I’m not even sure I was gonna say anything except that that was very that hit heart home for me very much. I’ve been in
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01:00:04.130 –> 01:00:14.139
Melanie Marsh: similar situations where email and social media in particular were kind of like weaponized against me as a pastor and
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01:00:15.990 –> 01:00:32.250
Melanie Marsh: oh, yeah, you, you, just we. I don’t know if we we know now, after like years of living in this kind of social media experiment, that the things that people say to you and about you on social media can feel
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01:00:32.270 –> 01:00:37.079
Melanie Marsh: so hurtful and and an email, it’s like we feel this license
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01:00:37.250 –> 01:00:42.059
Melanie Marsh: to say and do things that we would never say and do facetime.
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Melanie Marsh: And
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Melanie Marsh: I think that you’re right. We do need, like an entire course on how to protect ourselves emotionally, spiritually, from harmful material that comes to us digitally. But also, like
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Melanie Marsh: we, there’s a lot of pressure in some in some contexts to put out content. A lot on these digital platforms and learning to say.
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01:01:11.620 –> 01:01:20.349
Melanie Marsh: I’m not gonna do that during this season can be a boundary worth setting, but a boundary that’s hard to to navigate as well.
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Melanie Marsh: like. That’s a a thing I’m continuing to learn about. But I just resonate so deeply with that sense of like
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Melanie Marsh: number one. That’s a excellent advice. I think that anytime that there’s any kind of heightened, heightened emotion, even if it’s just anxiety, like, even if it’s not like hatred and vitriol, that that is a thing that needs a face to face at least a phone call conversation.
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Melanie Marsh: It is so much more
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Melanie Marsh: easy to misinterpret what you’re saying when it’s written on the page, then it is when you can see someone’s face or hear someone’s tone of voice.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: And that’s a thing we’re learning in the 20 first century that other generations past have not had to deal with as much.
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Melanie Marsh: Yep.
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Melanie Marsh: hmm!
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PamDriesell: Yeah, I I
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PamDriesell: I think I love that principle.
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PamDriesell: I also just want to name that.
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PamDriesell: Millie, when we first got started, you used the phrase, I jotted it down. My body revolts.
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PamDriesell: and you know when I and then, Julie, you said, you know I woke up sweating
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PamDriesell: you know, and I can remember a moment in the midst of a similar kinds of dynamics where I was. You know it. It was where I just
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01:02:40.730 –> 01:02:44.440
PamDriesell: set down because I was. I felt
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PamDriesell: I guess it was kind of like a panic attack. I mean, I it wasn’t like I I but I was just like. And I, the refrain that was going through my head was like, I’m not okay.
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01:02:54.270 –> 01:02:55.719
PamDriesell: I’m not okay.
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01:02:56.180 –> 01:02:58.079
PamDriesell: I am not okay right now.
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PamDriesell: And so I think that kind of
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PamDriesell: you know
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PamDriesell: it’s one thing to like. Try to create the balance and everything but one. Just trust your body will tell you when you’re when your boundaries are not.
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01:03:13.645 –> 01:03:13.820
Melanie Marsh: So.
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01:03:13.820 –> 01:03:29.286
PamDriesell: Working for you, and whether it’s sweat or just like hard to breathe, or you know your body revolting, and somebody mean the body tells the truth. I think that’s the the title of a book, but it will tell you, and I think
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PamDriesell: the discipline of really listening to that maybe before it gets to this crisis point where you’re like.
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01:03:36.470 –> 01:03:43.159
PamDriesell: I’m not okay, you know, is for me something that I I tried to develop a
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01:03:43.540 –> 01:03:46.979
PamDriesell: a, just a deeper listening to my body
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01:03:47.120 –> 01:03:50.640
PamDriesell: earlier on than I. Do, you know. Yeah.
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01:03:50.710 –> 01:03:53.029
PamDriesell: yeah, after that incident.
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01:03:53.220 –> 01:03:59.965
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, when it’s still a still, small voice inside, and not a scream like a total shutdown.
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01:04:00.320 –> 01:04:00.960
PamDriesell: Exactly. Yeah.
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01:04:00.960 –> 01:04:06.620
Melanie Marsh: That will happen eventually, if you keep ignoring. If we keep ignoring our our inner.
507
01:04:06.670 –> 01:04:08.539
Melanie Marsh: our inner sounds. Yeah.
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01:04:08.540 –> 01:04:09.390
PamDriesell: Yes.
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01:04:09.650 –> 01:04:20.120
PamDriesell: what I I wondered. Part of that question was also just so. I mean, I think we’ve answered. Kind of the impact on ourselves is is this various physical
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01:04:22.340 –> 01:04:39.769
PamDriesell: things that you know are revolts, as you put it. Wh any other thoughts or comments about how like, when your boundaries are not clear or or maintained how that affects others.
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01:04:43.910 –> 01:04:55.009
Melanie Marsh: I know for myself to get real cranky and real short with people, and unfortunately, the people that tend to bear the brunt of that, or the people that are closest to me, like my family.
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01:04:55.010 –> 01:04:56.020
PamDriesell: Family. I’m a Hamburg.
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01:04:56.130 –> 01:05:07.030
Melanie Marsh: Yeah. So even if it’s like a stressful situation that’s happening at work, I often don’t feel like I have enough of a I I I, my boundaries are pretty hard and fast at work that I’m not gonna like
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01:05:07.150 –> 01:05:19.893
Melanie Marsh: unleash on a coworker or unleash on a parishioner which I’ve seen happen before, but unfortunately, that means that, like the other people in my life, tend to get that that unintended.
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01:05:21.266 –> 01:05:33.913
Melanie Marsh: What’s the word shrapnel of those bombs that are going off inside of me. And so I I I do my best to try like you, said Pam, to start paying attention to that earlier and more. And
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Melanie Marsh: knowing when I need a moment to just
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01:05:37.620 –> 01:06:06.623
Melanie Marsh: step into a room and shut a door and just sit in silence for a few minutes. And my funnily, sadly, and also funnily, my kids start to know when that is happening, to like when their wildness, coupled with my boundary listness in my life. Is sort of mixing to this like cocktail of like. She needs a moment, and I will like go into my room and shut the door
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01:06:07.551 –> 01:06:17.468
Melanie Marsh: back, back, away, and be like, come on, guys, let’s play outside for a second like my 13 year old will often be like, let’s go. Let’s go.
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01:06:18.180 –> 01:06:32.679
Melanie Marsh: which should never have to happen like it shouldn’t be our job to like. Make sure that they stay out of the way of like the impending explosion. But we’re we’re learning how to how to regulate that a little more. Yeah.
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01:06:33.240 –> 01:06:34.390
Julie Pennington-Russell: That is beautiful. It’s a.
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01:06:34.390 –> 01:06:43.137
PamDriesell: I do think it’s healthy for her to know that, like, you know that there’s a time when I need some space to gather myself to take that
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01:06:43.940 –> 01:06:46.040
PamDriesell: you know. Sacred pause.
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01:06:46.040 –> 01:06:47.420
Melanie Marsh: Hmm, yeah, which?
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01:06:47.420 –> 01:06:48.950
PamDriesell: Me, as you know, just
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01:06:49.290 –> 01:06:51.319
PamDriesell: that whole thing is, is
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01:06:51.610 –> 01:06:56.337
PamDriesell: the power of a pause, is cannot be underestimated.
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01:06:56.810 –> 01:06:57.465
Julie Pennington-Russell: Damn!
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01:06:58.230 –> 01:07:05.118
Julie Pennington-Russell: I’m I’m starting this Sunday a 5 week sermon series, titled the powerful pause.
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01:07:05.610 –> 01:07:07.400
PamDriesell: Nice. I’m I mean.
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01:07:07.400 –> 01:07:14.740
Julie Pennington-Russell: I’m going on sabbatical in 5 weeks. And so this is a preparatory of sermon series for them. And so.
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Melanie Marsh: It’s one.
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01:07:15.460 –> 01:07:17.519
PamDriesell: And tune into that.
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01:07:17.520 –> 01:07:27.558
Julie Pennington-Russell: You named it. Oh, my goodness, I love Melanie when you’re talking about you know your family, and oh, my goodness, you! You’ve named something very important.
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01:07:28.060 –> 01:07:42.780
Julie Pennington-Russell: My family forever. It feels like bore the brunt, and you know I allowed them to to bear the brunt. I really didn’t have anywhere else to go. And so. But you know that that was in a different time. I feel like I’ve made some progress anyway.
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01:07:42.780 –> 01:08:11.780
Julie Pennington-Russell: hopefully. And so so I’m contemplative, and I have a, you know, singing bowl in my house, and I you know I’ll ring it. My family hears me ringing it for periods of silence. And sometimes, when my our young adult son, who lives with us sort of knows Mom is about to blow, she’s about to get, you know it’s about to explode. He will just gently walk over and just ring the singing bowl, and that calls the whole house into this lovely moment of silence and breath, and.
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01:08:12.330 –> 01:08:12.700
Melanie Marsh: Wow!
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01:08:12.700 –> 01:08:20.976
Julie Pennington-Russell: So you know, it’s our family knows when when things are building and we need. We need a break.
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01:08:21.399 –> 01:08:26.663
Melanie Marsh: Whether we’ve explicitly taught them, or just implicitly taught them. They learn those lessons.
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01:08:29.330 –> 01:08:53.210
Julie Pennington-Russell: I one other thing I would say about the effect on other people when our boundaries aren’t as clear as maybe they need to be. Sometimes I confusion in the congregation, you know. It’s like, you know what we talked about your your practice, Melanie, of naming. You know this is what I need. You know what what you talked about a minute ago. I think that the more we bring our
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01:08:53.779 –> 01:09:16.539
Julie Pennington-Russell: congregation into our practice of setting boundaries and let them know it’s a hit and miss, and we’re always aiming at a target, not always hitting the target. But this is what we need to be whole. I think the more we do of that, the less confusion they feel when oh, Pastor Julie is not available at this time. That must mean she doesn’t like me or she doesn’t, you know. So
541
01:09:16.770 –> 01:09:21.929
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah, you know, the confusion trying to minimize the confusion by
542
01:09:22.020 –> 01:09:26.667
Julie Pennington-Russell: adopting healthy practices ourselves is is a pastoral act in itself.
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01:09:27.229 –> 01:09:31.999
Melanie Marsh: Yeah. Yeah. And and recognizing, too, that that like, as you say, Julie, it’s
544
01:09:32.719 –> 01:10:00.279
Melanie Marsh: we are in a partner relationship with our congregation in the same way that we are in partner relationships in our personal lives and with our family members, and that we have to communicate with our congregation like we would communicate with another partner, you know. That. And there has to be that same kind of reciprocal give and take within that within that relationship, even though it’s a relationship of a multitude with a with a individual, you know.
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01:10:00.849 –> 01:10:01.739
Melanie Marsh: Yep.
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01:10:02.280 –> 01:10:02.840
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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01:10:04.878 –> 01:10:06.471
PamDriesell: Yeah. So I that’s
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01:10:08.270 –> 01:10:22.900
PamDriesell: that a again, I I like to. For me. I learn something when I hear people say, like, the impact is confusion, so that I can sometimes go backwards from. If I’m if I know the people around me are experiencing confusion.
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01:10:23.180 –> 01:10:46.210
PamDriesell: I can go backwards to say, well, May, maybe this is related to a lack of boundaries on my part. You know. How can I address that so? It’s interesting that you all. You know, both of you, said Confusion. I I I felt that as I reflected this week on what really was the impact and confusion was the word that kept coming to me this, that there’s just a lack of clarity, and when that happens.
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01:10:46.210 –> 01:10:55.205
PamDriesell: people do get feelings hurt. They make assumptions. They, you know, draw their conclusions, and and then it’s it creates that kind of
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01:10:55.690 –> 01:10:58.000
PamDriesell: the confusion sometimes chaos
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01:11:00.090 –> 01:11:03.930
PamDriesell: any other. So let’s talk about a a time
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01:11:04.330 –> 01:11:13.340
PamDriesell: when it was difficult. But you really felt good about you felt successful, faithful in your boundary setting.
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01:11:13.420 –> 01:11:23.359
PamDriesell: We’ve we’ve hit on some of those by way of like, Hey, I didn’t get it right. So I changed it to this. But I don’t know if there’s other, maybe just a story or example, that
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01:11:23.510 –> 01:11:27.009
PamDriesell: that that would be helpful.
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01:11:30.425 –> 01:11:37.179
Julie Pennington-Russell: I to come to mind for me, and I’ll just mention when when we had young children at home.
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01:11:37.452 –> 01:12:02.009
Julie Pennington-Russell: One of the boundaries that I drew and communicated with our congregation is, and this is back before cell phones. Sorry. You know, we had the phone on the wall. And I just sort of let it be known that between the hours of 5 and 8 every day that that was our family time, and I was fo focusing on the family, and I didn’t even couch it in terms of I will not be available to you between the hours of 5 and 8. I just said.
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01:12:02.010 –> 01:12:20.510
Julie Pennington-Russell: between 5 and 8, our family dinner and putting the kids to bed is really important to us. And so so I’m going to focus on them between 5 and 8, and that you know, I did receive, you know, some phone calls after 8, you know, at 9, or because people said, Oh, well, that must be a good time to call.
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01:12:20.510 –> 01:12:33.878
Julie Pennington-Russell: and that was fine, but that so that was one boundary that we drew pretty pretty well, I think the other was. It’s just a practice that I’ve come to use.
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01:12:34.620 –> 01:12:52.010
Julie Pennington-Russell: and I feel really good about it. When someone has said, Can I come? See you on Tuesday? I need to see you on on Tuesday. I I have come to feel very free to depending on how the week is going to say I’m so sorry I have a commitment at that time.
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01:12:52.370 –> 01:13:15.269
Julie Pennington-Russell: and sometimes the commitment is to myself. I may just say, Oh, I’m sorry. I you know I’m I have a commitment then, instead of you know. Oh, okay, I have an empty space on my calendar. I guess I need to fill it with you, or you know, and then I feel resentful or yeah. So so owning that commitments to myself.
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01:13:15.270 –> 01:13:15.810
PamDriesell: Yes.
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01:13:15.810 –> 01:13:18.389
Julie Pennington-Russell: One way to stay healthy and hard.
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01:13:18.390 –> 01:13:28.678
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, hugely. Yes, I agree with that. I think that would. So often we we hear from other people. And we say to ourselves, you know, just a space does not
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01:13:29.040 –> 01:13:58.270
Melanie Marsh: free. Time does not mean availability necessarily right? And I think that’s a great reminder to all of us that you know you. We are in charge of our own, of our own availability, and I might not be available just because there’s a slot there open on my calendar. I think for me it goes back to that. The one successful thing that I that comes to mind goes back to that idea of of social media and the ways in which we have to
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01:13:58.540 –> 01:14:24.010
Melanie Marsh: maintain our own mental wellbeing and emotional and spiritual health while interacting on this new media. So you know, we know that a lot of our congregation want to get to know us in this way and want to be able to connect with us, and a lot of people will say, Well, you have to go on on Facebook and like, add all the congregation as your friends, so that you can keep up with what’s happening because they share their life events in that way.
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01:14:24.437 –> 01:14:35.979
Melanie Marsh: And so, after having a very challenging experience with navigating social media. At a certain point in my life I set a strong boundary around having
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01:14:36.200 –> 01:14:37.730
Melanie Marsh: a professional
569
01:14:37.830 –> 01:15:00.949
Melanie Marsh: social media set of accounts, and then my private social media set of accounts that are personal to me, where my friends and family and people from the rest of my life I can interact with, and I will add friends from the church on my church related stuff, and I will follow them, and they can follow me back, and I will befriend them, and they can befriend me back.
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01:15:01.234 –> 01:15:24.869
Melanie Marsh: But this other one is private, and I don’t. I don’t let people add me or follow me on it, and sometimes they try, and I say no, and I’m like sorry. That’s my private one. You can’t. You can’t access that one. I love you. You can follow me here. All my church stuff will be here. I will follow you back. I’ll like your kids baseball pictures, I will, you know, celebrate your birthday with you on this, but
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01:15:24.920 –> 01:15:30.809
Melanie Marsh: there is a part of my life and my soul that I will not allow my congregation to.
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01:15:31.080 –> 01:15:32.980
Julie Pennington-Russell: Brilliant, brilliant.
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01:15:33.490 –> 01:15:42.466
Melanie Marsh: And I do feel guilty about that, like you, said Julie, like there’s still some guilt around, not letting people all the way into your life, but I do feel like it is necessary
574
01:15:42.740 –> 01:15:45.569
Melanie Marsh: to maintain that distance sometimes.
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01:15:47.090 –> 01:15:50.960
PamDriesell: Yeah, I I love the language of just. I’ve got a commitment.
576
01:15:51.700 –> 01:15:59.239
PamDriesell: And one of the things I think that I had to learn was like, I actually don’t owe anybody an explanation when I say No.
577
01:15:59.640 –> 01:16:06.717
PamDriesell: it’s like it’s just a not. I don’t need to say what the commitment is to, or that I have something else I always think about.
578
01:16:08.370 –> 01:16:21.692
PamDriesell: I don’t know. You guys are most of you on here so young. I don’t know if you if you were a fans of friends, the the sitcom friends, but I always reference Phoebe, who would who she’d go. Oh, I would. But I don’t want to like.
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01:16:24.120 –> 01:16:24.440
Julie Pennington-Russell: See.
580
01:16:24.440 –> 01:16:42.979
PamDriesell: Get invited to stuff. Oh, that yeah, I would. But I don’t want to. And so, even though I may not say that out loud like, I think that in my head like it. I it’s okay if I just don’t want to. And you know and that, it’s just I have a commitment to
581
01:16:43.500 –> 01:16:55.169
PamDriesell: something else, you know, and I don’t need to tell anybody what that is. I do. Wanna say I I’ve had a unique and and by the gray Sagada, I think I I
582
01:16:56.900 –> 01:17:01.829
PamDriesell: did as good a job as I could have on creating boundaries around this, and God
583
01:17:03.040 –> 01:17:11.169
PamDriesell: forbid that any of you ever have to navigate scandals in your congregation or on your staff. But
584
01:17:12.820 –> 01:17:19.040
PamDriesell: That is a particularly difficult boundary situation to navigate
585
01:17:19.683 –> 01:17:22.550
PamDriesell: the boundary between being transparent
586
01:17:22.760 –> 01:17:24.250
PamDriesell: and honoring
587
01:17:24.310 –> 01:17:30.400
PamDriesell: certain people’s confidentiality, particularly, you know.
588
01:17:31.080 –> 01:17:36.490
PamDriesell: Quote innocent parties, you know, or it’s just a very, very, very, very
589
01:17:37.830 –> 01:17:45.249
PamDriesell: fine lines! You’re walking all the time, and those boundaries aren’t easy to determine.
590
01:17:45.881 –> 01:17:51.989
PamDriesell: The success that I felt in it is that I really felt a lot of pressure
591
01:17:52.090 –> 01:17:53.140
PamDriesell: from
592
01:17:53.650 –> 01:17:54.730
PamDriesell: my.
593
01:17:55.610 –> 01:17:58.459
PamDriesell: you know. Lay leaders.
594
01:17:59.447 –> 01:18:01.590
PamDriesell: Towards airing on the side of
595
01:18:01.740 –> 01:18:03.690
PamDriesell: quote confidentiality.
596
01:18:03.760 –> 01:18:05.050
PamDriesell: you know we.
597
01:18:05.210 –> 01:18:09.089
PamDriesell: and and not being as transparent
598
01:18:09.460 –> 01:18:10.360
PamDriesell: as
599
01:18:10.860 –> 01:18:13.819
PamDriesell: I felt very strongly. We needed to be.
600
01:18:14.270 –> 01:18:26.984
PamDriesell: But that was a very, very, very difficult time of discernment for me like to to, because there was a lot of pressure, and and you could make a case. I mean, it was just very, I guess. What I’m saying is, during
601
01:18:27.640 –> 01:18:28.700
PamDriesell: there was
602
01:18:28.820 –> 01:18:32.829
PamDriesell: I spent a lot of time in prayer, and just
603
01:18:33.130 –> 01:18:34.619
PamDriesell: kind of getting that.
604
01:18:34.970 –> 01:18:48.880
PamDriesell: the power of the pause not responding in the moment, going back home, getting out of the the meeting situation, not being pressured in a meeting to make a decision right then.
605
01:18:49.140 –> 01:18:49.590
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
606
01:18:49.932 –> 01:18:54.719
PamDriesell: That when I don’t have a sense, a deep sense of peace to say.
607
01:18:55.030 –> 01:19:00.869
PamDriesell: Hey, I need some time to pray about this, to think about this, to contemplate this
608
01:19:01.233 –> 01:19:08.049
PamDriesell: to seek the opinion of other people who’ve been through it. You know. I guess so. I guess that to me is another.
609
01:19:08.440 –> 01:19:11.579
PamDriesell: Another boundary. Is that being.
610
01:19:11.870 –> 01:19:16.700
PamDriesell: you know, being willing to say I I’m not ready to make this decision right now.
611
01:19:17.020 –> 01:19:22.549
PamDriesell: and to get that again that pause that that time away, that discernment
612
01:19:23.042 –> 01:19:38.660
PamDriesell: particularly when it comes to, and it may not even be a scandal. But any kind of staffing issue where you are. You know the the balanced, the boundaries between transparency and confidentiality are very nuanced
613
01:19:38.920 –> 01:19:39.745
PamDriesell: and
614
01:19:41.670 –> 01:19:49.619
PamDriesell: So I lift that up to say, you know it. It involves a lot of prayer it involves, and and also for me.
615
01:19:49.630 –> 01:19:52.339
PamDriesell: I think it also
616
01:19:53.130 –> 01:19:54.163
PamDriesell: I was
617
01:19:55.420 –> 01:19:57.619
PamDriesell: I was very much helped
618
01:19:57.680 –> 01:19:59.130
PamDriesell: and equipped
619
01:19:59.260 –> 01:20:03.020
PamDriesell: for walking those lines by reaching out to other people
620
01:20:03.050 –> 01:20:04.090
PamDriesell: who had
621
01:20:04.120 –> 01:20:06.619
PamDriesell: navigated similar boundaries.
622
01:20:06.750 –> 01:20:07.500
PamDriesell: Mad.
623
01:20:07.670 –> 01:20:08.440
Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
624
01:20:08.800 –> 01:20:20.050
Melanie Marsh: And yeah, just being having the courage to say, I’m not ready to make this decision yet, like, I’ll I need some time to think about this is, yeah, really, huge.
625
01:20:20.050 –> 01:20:20.650
Julie Pennington-Russell: Right
626
01:20:20.760 –> 01:20:24.280
Julie Pennington-Russell: it is, and the community piece, you know, not
627
01:20:24.700 –> 01:20:27.791
Julie Pennington-Russell: going it alone. So important.
628
01:20:28.410 –> 01:20:39.660
Melanie Marsh: Get so much pressure from people, especially when it is a scandal. And people are like anxious about how we’re gonna look and whatever to say, like, we need to act right away. We need to put out a statement. We need to do all these things now.
629
01:20:39.840 –> 01:20:43.109
Melanie Marsh: And it. It takes a lot of like
630
01:20:43.350 –> 01:20:46.759
Melanie Marsh: strength and wisdom to say
631
01:20:47.050 –> 01:20:52.209
Melanie Marsh: No, I need. We need to. We need to be discerning about this before we say something.
632
01:20:54.180 –> 01:20:54.889
PamDriesell: And I
633
01:20:55.170 –> 01:20:56.120
PamDriesell: oh, go ahead, Julie.
634
01:20:56.120 –> 01:20:56.959
Julie Pennington-Russell: No go ahead!
635
01:20:57.570 –> 01:21:02.850
PamDriesell: Well, I was just gonna say, the other thing about that is like putting out statements and things like
636
01:21:05.040 –> 01:21:07.030
PamDriesell: those words.
637
01:21:08.290 –> 01:21:12.920
PamDriesell: I mean, you know this. You write sermons, all of you, I mean, you know, or it
638
01:21:14.130 –> 01:21:14.960
PamDriesell: the
639
01:21:15.210 –> 01:21:23.950
PamDriesell: taking the time to deliberate, discern, pray over the words that go out during those times is.
640
01:21:24.730 –> 01:21:40.790
PamDriesell: it’s just absolutely vital to I think, navigating those boundaries and really praying, you know, is it Hemingway who said, and I think about this every time I write a sermon, you know. Hey? There’s nothing to writing. Just sit at the typewriter and bleed again. Another another reference to typewriters.
641
01:21:41.525 –> 01:21:43.898
PamDriesell: Back from the old days. But
642
01:21:45.290 –> 01:21:52.149
PamDriesell: You know, writing writing communications to a congregation during those
643
01:21:52.610 –> 01:21:59.020
PamDriesell: tender, you know, particular, possibly scandalous situations where people will be
644
01:21:59.310 –> 01:22:01.890
PamDriesell: is really hard work.
645
01:22:02.440 –> 01:22:11.969
PamDriesell: and and I think the time invested in it is is really important, because what those communications do is set boundaries for everybody.
646
01:22:12.330 –> 01:22:14.740
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, they do. They do
647
01:22:15.870 –> 01:22:32.610
Julie Pennington-Russell: one of my practices when I’m trying to discern, you know language, or what do I do next? Or what do I? You know? What do I say next? Is it’s 3 fold you know, when, when I’m sitting with the issue, I ask myself, what is my ego
648
01:22:32.630 –> 01:22:33.650
Julie Pennington-Russell: saying.
649
01:22:33.960 –> 01:22:49.530
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know. And often my ego is saying, you know, how are you gonna get people to like you? Wh, what are you gonna say, that is gonna shine the best light on you, Jule, you know, Julie. So I kinda sit with that, and you know, and then I let myself sink a little deeper. What is my mind thinking? And
650
01:22:49.530 –> 01:23:07.749
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know some often my mind is in this dualistic. Well, it’s gotta be either this or this and this. I’ve gotta say this or this and go there. And so, you know, I try to sit through that, and then I get down to the place. What does your heart say? What does your gut say? And usually, by the time I’ve had a conversation with all 3 of those.
651
01:23:07.750 –> 01:23:12.329
Julie Pennington-Russell: the thing that needs to rise will rise and.
652
01:23:12.910 –> 01:23:17.739
Julie Pennington-Russell: But but it takes time to do that. I’m not really great in the moment when I have to make it.
653
01:23:17.900 –> 01:23:24.309
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know. Snap decision. I don’t think snap decisions are always the healthiest thing for anybody. So
654
01:23:24.958 –> 01:23:29.979
Julie Pennington-Russell: but but people like snap decision. They like a leader who looks like they can, just, you know.
655
01:23:30.090 –> 01:23:31.866
Julie Pennington-Russell: rattle it off. So
656
01:23:32.630 –> 01:23:38.057
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah, you have to be willing to bear that disappointment in people.
657
01:23:38.850 –> 01:23:39.820
Melanie Marsh: Right
658
01:23:40.120 –> 01:23:41.200
Melanie Marsh: and and.
659
01:23:41.491 –> 01:24:05.709
Thais Carter: Love to break in here because I’m loving and hanging on every word. But we do already have a couple of really great questions in the chat that I wanted to lift up as we transition to the participants in the audience being able to share some of their questions with you all. To start one was an observation that if some of the things that are starting that would traditionally be things that would be on that
660
01:24:05.710 –> 01:24:18.109
Thais Carter: fill the F instead of the d. That if those are now starting to be experienced as draining, if that is a sign of being headed towards Burnout, or maybe a red flag that you’re already there.
661
01:24:20.500 –> 01:24:21.830
Julie Pennington-Russell: Such a great.
662
01:24:21.830 –> 01:24:23.240
Melanie Marsh: Great observation.
663
01:24:23.240 –> 01:24:25.059
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah. Great question.
664
01:24:25.210 –> 01:24:27.510
Julie Pennington-Russell: Great question, I mean, and
665
01:24:27.640 –> 01:24:29.829
Julie Pennington-Russell: my my quick response.
666
01:24:30.333 –> 01:24:47.570
Julie Pennington-Russell: w would be, could be it? It really could be and I think to have the the wisdom and the perception to be able to name. Oh, my goodness! The things that used to fill me are actually now draining me is in itself
667
01:24:47.720 –> 01:24:50.910
Julie Pennington-Russell: a win, you know. That’s important.
668
01:24:50.960 –> 01:25:05.150
Julie Pennington-Russell: So I would say I, that very question is one of the reasons I have had a spiritual director for years, and someone just to bounce it off a therapist. A, you know, cause that is, that’s a deep question. And
669
01:25:05.180 –> 01:25:08.749
Julie Pennington-Russell: it very well could be pointing to burnout. So
670
01:25:10.100 –> 01:25:12.071
PamDriesell: Well, and this would transition to
671
01:25:13.230 –> 01:25:23.589
PamDriesell: speaking of our our thing tomorrow, and maybe we could start even with this question, because to me another. Another piece of that question is.
672
01:25:23.700 –> 01:25:25.020
PamDriesell: Is this
673
01:25:25.420 –> 01:25:26.830
PamDriesell: burnout.
674
01:25:27.570 –> 01:25:36.810
PamDriesell: or is this the spirit leading me to a transition, you know, is this has something about this particular call
675
01:25:38.055 –> 01:25:39.030
PamDriesell: not
676
01:25:39.060 –> 01:25:50.399
PamDriesell: not would make. And I’m I’m not suggesting it is. I’m just saying it’s a good. It’s a question worth answering. It’s a those that that is a a red flag. It’s a it’s a you know. It’s just a
677
01:25:50.480 –> 01:25:53.270
PamDriesell: something saying, pay attention to this
678
01:25:53.490 –> 01:25:57.178
PamDriesell: and ask, you know, what does it mean
679
01:25:58.020 –> 01:26:10.449
PamDriesell: burnout time for transition? W. You know, whatever. But I I think it really is quite a profound observation, and making the observation, as Julie said, is the first
680
01:26:10.980 –> 01:26:13.860
PamDriesell: very important spiritual practice.
681
01:26:13.860 –> 01:26:14.650
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
682
01:26:16.513 –> 01:26:23.726
Thais Carter: One of the other questions that popped into the chat was, do you have thoughts about why congregations are so stressful.
683
01:26:25.425 –> 01:26:26.460
Julie Pennington-Russell: Which keep it.
684
01:26:26.460 –> 01:26:29.290
Thais Carter: And we don’t have another 90 min.
685
01:26:29.590 –> 01:26:31.010
Julie Pennington-Russell: So friend.
686
01:26:31.010 –> 01:26:51.340
Melanie Marsh: Because the world is so stressful. The world is stressful. Oh, my God, that is a great, great question. And like I mean, I think that that is kind of true, I mean, even though that feels like a very easy answer. Our lives are built stressful these days.
687
01:26:51.460 –> 01:27:04.230
Melanie Marsh: Everything about modern life. In this, you know, late stage capitalism, capitalism, American Western society is engineered to induce stress
688
01:27:04.320 –> 01:27:30.719
Melanie Marsh: scarcity. You know. O overwhelming pressure to perform and produce, and to not to not stop grinding, and to keep on working until like the moment you drop, and to make money, and to do whatever to be your very best looking being, feeling self in every single moment. I mean, that is stressful, and every single one of the people that we
689
01:27:30.770 –> 01:27:39.764
Melanie Marsh: are in relationship with in our congregations is living with all that stress, and then they take it with them into the space whenever we gather
690
01:27:40.770 –> 01:27:43.680
Melanie Marsh: And yeah, I mean, I feel like that.
691
01:27:44.110 –> 01:27:56.720
Melanie Marsh: unavoidable in some ways, and which is part of the reason why, like we talk about, we, we have to be the counter message to that, and being the counter message is really difficult. But we have to find some way to
692
01:27:56.800 –> 01:27:57.890
Melanie Marsh: just like
693
01:27:59.880 –> 01:28:03.079
Melanie Marsh: resist, to resist all of that.
694
01:28:03.510 –> 01:28:04.850
Melanie Marsh: as missions.
695
01:28:05.110 –> 01:28:06.530
Julie Pennington-Russell: Absolutely.
696
01:28:06.980 –> 01:28:31.179
Thais Carter: And I’d be curious what you all would say. There’s a sub question within the question around, kind of the gendered components around what might make a congregation stressful. And specifically, when working with male colleagues where they and I think, you know, you can see this across professional sectors. It’s not just a church thing, but where a male colleague says something, and he is perceived as wise, you say the exact same thing, and you are perceived as challenging
697
01:28:31.746 –> 01:28:50.740
Thais Carter: and how that contributes to the stress. I mean, when you all think about kind of the gendered components of boundary setting. And I think this is kind of leaning into that a little bit. What are some of the, you know? Not just necessarily what you’ve experienced, but maybe how you’ve navigated that when it has been part of your experience.
698
01:28:50.890 –> 01:28:52.669
Melanie Marsh: That’s a whole other 90 min right there.
699
01:28:53.056 –> 01:28:55.373
PamDriesell: Yeah, for sure. Oh, come back.
700
01:28:55.760 –> 01:28:58.020
Thais Carter: And there’s never enough time.
701
01:28:58.340 –> 01:29:14.709
PamDriesell: I wanna go back a little bit to the the uniqueness. I do think there are some some unique characteristics of congregations that add to the stress. I think that. And and they’re not only for congregations, there are. But
702
01:29:15.250 –> 01:29:25.000
PamDriesell: you know, if you’re the pastor, you know you’re the quote. You’re supposed to be the CEO. You’re the spiritual director, I mean there is. There are so many different roles, and
703
01:29:25.200 –> 01:29:46.591
PamDriesell: figuring out how to combine all of those, I think, is a particular stressor that the average quote, CEO doesn’t have or you know, a a spiritual leader who’s just part of a like a, you know, a, not a highly organized institution doesn’t have. So I I think that, and also that
704
01:29:47.830 –> 01:29:51.800
PamDriesell: it. We are by nature volunteer organizations.
705
01:29:51.960 –> 01:29:53.720
PamDriesell: and that
706
01:29:54.120 –> 01:30:04.377
PamDriesell: creates a set of shall we say stressful challenges? Right? So if you are running an organization where you can?
707
01:30:05.100 –> 01:30:31.569
PamDriesell: you know you’re hiring and firing the people who are part of that organization because they align with your values and your but most of us are dropped into a congregation unless you’re a new church pastor which, by the way, let me put a plug in for that. That’s a lot of fun. It’s easier to create a culture than change one. But you’re you’re dropped in and you’re there is a unique set of stressors to
708
01:30:32.260 –> 01:30:55.289
PamDriesell: you know, you can’t fire people. You can’t. You are. You have to work with the volunteers you have, and many times churches like, I like to say, kind of like homeowners, associations, or local, you know, like the people who gravitate towards leadership, are often people who find the church a place
709
01:30:55.861 –> 01:31:24.449
PamDriesell: maybe the only place in their lives where they can really execute power, and they’re oftentimes again the ones who gravitate there are not the people that you necessarily want to be in the leaders, because so I think I’m naming something all of you are familiar with. I just wanna acknowledge that I do think those are some of the reasons that churches and congregations can be exceptionally stressful.
710
01:31:25.250 –> 01:31:25.870
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
711
01:31:28.810 –> 01:31:30.713
Julie Pennington-Russell: I will say this.
712
01:31:33.000 –> 01:31:49.072
Julie Pennington-Russell: When I left my church in in Atlanta and Pam and I were serving at the same time together, and our paths got to cross, and it was lovely and and it it was that was very stressful and and painful in a lot of ways.
713
01:31:49.400 –> 01:32:10.357
Julie Pennington-Russell: But when I left and then came to Washington after a period of 7 months, I I took a 7 month break, and to discern whether I still wanted to be a pastor. It was called to be a pastor, because it the pain before and along the way determine. This really is what I love. I love this, I love this life, love this work.
714
01:32:10.720 –> 01:32:21.310
Julie Pennington-Russell: And so began a conversation with his church in Washington, which at that time was known in Baptist circles as the pastor Killer Church in America.
715
01:32:21.755 –> 01:32:27.389
Julie Pennington-Russell: And Lord knows why I felt drawn to this church, but I did, I did.
716
01:32:27.460 –> 01:32:56.069
Julie Pennington-Russell: and and it’s turned out to be the most life giving experience these last 8 and a half years. But but when I arrived I knew that I needed to to learn how to lead and live from a different place. That I you know, I I sort of had plenty of skills, all the corporate leadership, you know, and the and those served well, they’re not the enemy, but you know, but but and so so I sort of shifted gears, and.
717
01:32:56.400 –> 01:32:58.809
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know, leaned into this contemplative
718
01:32:58.980 –> 01:33:07.589
Julie Pennington-Russell: path, and and I feel that the answer to some of these questions, and and even the one about gender and
719
01:33:08.080 –> 01:33:22.910
Julie Pennington-Russell: I I feel like the the essential task for a pastor is to ground our lives in the divine, in the holy. You know in God whatever language, and to live and lead from there. And that’s
720
01:33:22.940 –> 01:33:25.389
Julie Pennington-Russell: that’s the task. And that
721
01:33:25.964 –> 01:33:32.889
Julie Pennington-Russell: that’s the hardest. That’s the hardest piece we have to show up as a real person and a real.
722
01:33:32.900 –> 01:33:36.809
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know, I mean as a person whose life is for God, and
723
01:33:36.940 –> 01:33:52.169
Julie Pennington-Russell: I never got a tattoo, but if I did I missed that train and darn it, and now I don’t really have places that aren’t sagging or swelling, or whatever. But but if I got a tattoo, it would say, se quombidari.
724
01:33:52.260 –> 01:33:58.140
Julie Pennington-Russell: which is Latin for to be rather than to seem.
725
01:33:58.220 –> 01:34:12.879
Julie Pennington-Russell: And I feel like you know, I wanna be a pastor, and I want to love God. I don’t wanna just seem like I love God, or I wanna seem like I’m peaceful. I wanna be at peace. I wanna be at the core of my living. These, you know, these
726
01:34:13.540 –> 01:34:16.550
Julie Pennington-Russell: these things that are life giving. So
727
01:34:18.020 –> 01:34:23.829
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah, I just this grounded. And God thing is real for me. And
728
01:34:24.270 –> 01:34:25.490
Julie Pennington-Russell: really important.
729
01:34:26.400 –> 01:34:28.660
PamDriesell: What a what a radical thing Julie
730
01:34:29.260 –> 01:34:32.175
PamDriesell: founded! And God, are you kidding me? But I.
731
01:34:32.500 –> 01:34:32.939
Julie Pennington-Russell: Hey! Tim!
732
01:34:32.940 –> 01:34:41.380
PamDriesell: I love it, I mean I you know it’s really beautiful for me to hear a little bit behind the scene of you know, watching you navigate all that. And
733
01:34:42.790 –> 01:34:44.050
PamDriesell: you!
734
01:34:44.610 –> 01:34:56.740
PamDriesell: Just to hear that you are what you seemed. You know it was you. You demonstrated a lot of strength through those difficult transitions which we’ll get to tomorrow. I also wanted to just respond to the gender
735
01:34:57.219 –> 01:35:01.629
PamDriesell: thing again. You know, this has come up several times. I think naming
736
01:35:01.760 –> 01:35:04.649
PamDriesell: things is just so powerful
737
01:35:04.920 –> 01:35:08.990
PamDriesell: that sometimes being able to name.
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PamDriesell: you know.
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PamDriesell: Those differences. Well, wow! If when he said it, it was wise, and when I said it, it was, you know, or but not in a defensive way, more in an
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PamDriesell: observation way, and just helping people
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PamDriesell: recognize those things and
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PamDriesell: not
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PamDriesell: n not living like not not internalizing it. So
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PamDriesell: if someone’s like, Oh, you’re being pushy, and you know, actually, no, you’re just, you know, asserting a boundary right like not to that. That, I think, is the biggest challenge, as you know, is to not say, Oh, gosh! Well, I don’t wanna seem pushy right. I don’t wanna seem well. Actually, if you know inside your heart like this is not pushy. This is just me
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PamDriesell: to to continue to act, you know.
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PamDriesell: in alignment with your values, and
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PamDriesell: Regardless of how people genderize that. Yeah.
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Thais Carter: I wanna encourage folks in the participant group. If you wanna continue to put questions into the chat, you can, and I will read them out, or if you want to kind of raise your hand, your virtual hand we can call on you to come off mute and off video to share your question while that is happening. Another one that came in. And I think this speaks to the fact that you know the role of the pastor has been changing so much.
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Thais Carter: during covid you all became AV experts. Congratulations. I hope you got a certificate but there’s so many different things that are happening. And so one of the questions is that as our responsibilities change, our boundaries will also need to change and shift.
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Thais Carter: When is the best time to slow down and acknowledge this change. So timing is really hard. It’s maybe more of an art than a science. But any thoughts on timing.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Wow!
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Huh!
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Hmm!
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PamDriesell: My, my initial thought is back to something I said earlier.
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PamDriesell: Your body will tell you
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PamDriesell: like when you’re feeling
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PamDriesell: exhausted. It’s time.
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PamDriesell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: you know. And I would say your emotions will tell you, too, like if you’re feeling resentful.
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PamDriesell: I think resentment is like, one of those big things, of going backing up and going.
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PamDriesell: maybe it’s fine.
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PamDriesell: you know. It’s time to
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PamDriesell: reassess boundaries and reestablish.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Not
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Julie Pennington-Russell: it also? It.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Another way to come at the the timing piece.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Is absolutely what you said, Pam. You know, whenever we reach that point where we know we’ve gotta take a break or we’re gonna get broken. Is is just sort of start on the other end when we’re in a healthy place.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and say, You know, is there is there something that would bring me joy, more joy? What? What? You know? What is it. What? What is it I might do? And and then add something that for you, that is soul filling. And so I think both. You know, when you’re when you’re exhausted and your soul tells you pay attention, and when you’re not necessarily in a crash and burn, take that opportunity to say, who am I, and what
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Julie Pennington-Russell: what am I gonna do with my one wild and precious life? And you know.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: should I should I start painting? I don’t know. Should I take up the clarinet?
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Julie Pennington-Russell: My husband would say immediately, no, don’t take up the clarity.
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Melanie Marsh: True.
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Thais Carter: So, Nancy, I see that you’ve come on video, what is your question?
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Nancy J Hagner: Just wanted to
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Nancy J Hagner: see everybody.
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Nancy J Hagner: I just thank you for this. And I I did. Just wanna say, without typing it in there. My colleague, I was the person who asked the question about the gender thing. I’m this. I’m the senior pastor. He’s the he’s the assistant. Everyone who comes in. New, of course, assumes he’s the boss, and I’m the whatever but the the good part is that he and I laugh about it.
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Nancy J Hagner: You know he and he and I have a great relationship, and he’ll just say.
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Nancy J Hagner: I just look like everybody’s father.
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Nancy J Hagner: so you know. And so they gravitate towards this big, tall, white haired white guy who looks like everybody’s dad and they.
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Nancy J Hagner: And so it’s fabulous if in this weird way, because he’s gotten a lot of pastoral care opportunities. He’s new. He just started in October, you know. He’s gotten a lot of pastoral care opportunities
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Nancy J Hagner: from people who
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Nancy J Hagner: don’t necessarily want me.
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Nancy J Hagner: So the good news is, we do laugh about it. And and he just says, Oh, yeah, I’m wise, and you’re challenging. And I’m like you just keep being wise because we need somebody to be wise.
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Nancy J Hagner: So anyway, I just wanted to say it’s it’s been. There’s grace in it, even though
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Nancy J Hagner: it does drive me crazy.
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Nancy J Hagner: Oh, that
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Nancy J Hagner: kids up! Thank you.
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Melanie Marsh: Thank you.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: You.
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Thais Carter: I wanna echo Nancy, and saying Thank you to everyone. Thank you. To all of the participants who showed up in our last couple of minutes. I want to give to some instructions for tomorrow
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Thais Carter: so we will be doing this again. But we are gonna be talking about navigating transitions, which I think is a really kind of beautiful segue. Especially from some of the components that we were talking about here at the end. We will start at 10 Am. Tomorrow, and we will go from 10 Am. To 1130 am. Eastern time. You should have received an email that had the zoom link for both today’s session and tomorrow session.
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Thais Carter: I hope that many of you can join us again. If this was your first outing with iron sharpening iron again. Welcome, and I hope that you will go to Isi dot ptu. We’ve got listings of all the other lovely things that we have going on webinars, workshops
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Thais Carter: the executive leadership certificate, virtual leadership seminar lots of ways that we wanna be resourcing you to live fully into your call and into your leadership. So we believe in honoring time and starting on time and ending on time, so I hope that you all join me in a virtual hand clap for our panelists.
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Thais Carter: and just thank you all so much again for your time and for your wisdom, and we will look forward to tomorrow’s conversation.
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Melanie Marsh: Thank you.
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Thais Carter: Welcome everyone to part 2 of our living in liminal spaces. Webinar Series. Today we are going to be talking about navigating transitions with integrity, and much like yesterday’s conversation. This comes directly from real conversations and questions that have come up during our time with the iron, sharpening iron participants.
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Thais Carter: many of whom are thinking about transition in transition, worrying about transition, celebrating transition, and part of what we have learned is that
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Thais Carter: there is no one right way to know that now is the time, and one of the best gifts that we can give is the wisdom that comes from people who have lived through a lot of different kinds of transitions, seen it up, close both the good and the bad, and so we are very excited to welcome back our panelists
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Thais Carter: Reverend Pam Drizell, Reverend Melanie Marsh and Reverend Julie Pennington Russell. We are going to go right into the conversation. I’m gonna go ahead and drop their bios in the chat so that we can leave as much time as possible for the conversation itself
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Thais Carter: as a reminder. Because we know that this is happening in multiple time zones for lots of different people. It’s a gift to be able to just have your camera off. You don’t have to worry about anyone seeing you, you can drink your coffee. You can have your breakfast. You can have an early lunch, whatever you need feel free to put your questions in the chat, and we will lift those up as we get closer to the end of the facilitated conversation. And if you have any issues, you can feel free to message me directly, and I can troubleshoot for you.
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Thais Carter: So with that, Pam, I’m gonna hand things over.
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PamDriesell: Thanks. Taiz! We were just chatting before everybody jumped in about how much fun we had in the conversation yesterday, and getting to know each other a little better, a little more depth into one another’s stories. And I learned a lot from my colleagues. So thank you. So today, we’re talking about navigating transitions with integrity.
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PamDriesell: And we thought it’d be a good idea just to start by talking a little bit about what integrity means to each of us. So I’ll open that up for for you Julie and Melanie, and we’ll just jump right in and converse.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, it’s a great. I think it’s a great place to begin. And I’m happy to
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Julie Pennington-Russell: roll out this time. So I I thought about it this morning, and I I think I for me, integrity ties back to what I mentioned yesterday about the tattoo. I never got with the the Latin words essay quali, you know to be rather than to seem
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so. For me, integrity has a lot to do with the authenticity. You know, being the same person inside as I am on the outside. To, I I think to live by my inside. Truth is, is a big part of integrity. And and you know, when I, when I think about it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: contemplating my inside, truth is for me the same as contemplating the voice of the divine.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So yeah, that’s what I would say about integrity.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah, and all that really rings true for me, too. I think that all of that plus, I would say,
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Melanie Marsh: living by that inside truth
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Melanie Marsh: in every moment, even when it’s really hard. And especially. And this is the thing that I found to be super challenging and important when there is strong pressure externally.
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Melanie Marsh: the easier thing. That is the wrong thing. So when you want to live by that inside truth, and you want to do the thing that feels like it
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Melanie Marsh: jives with that inside truth. But the
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Melanie Marsh: the other people in the situation are, or the situation itself is trying to pressure you to do.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: Convenient but less authentic to who you are.
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Melanie Marsh: And that is something that
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Melanie Marsh: feels like. It happens too often in our lives as ministers, especially in times of transition. But also, I think the other thing for me is being uncompromising about a couple of things like my own dignity and humanity.
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Melanie Marsh: The dignity and humanity of the other people, and the big picture, health and thriving of the whole situation. I think all of those things are bound up in integrity as well.
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PamDriesell: So I do. Sometimes improv classes. And there’s this exercise called, yes. And do you know this exercise? Yeah. So what I wanna say is, yes and another thing for me around integrity has become this. You know it. The word integrity to integrate is also
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PamDriesell: being conscious of my own.
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PamDriesell: maybe
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PamDriesell: unconscious, or or sometimes conscious, dark side, right? So integrating all of who I am and not denying any of that, but but also not letting the darker side or the false ego, or you know, whatever you you know, we can use
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PamDriesell: Paul’s language of the the false self, the, you know, drive that I’ve been really influenced by
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PamDriesell: Jim Detmer and Diana Chapman’s work on conscious leadership.
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PamDriesell: I’ve kind of
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PamDriesell: taken it and translated it into my own kind of sense of being a you know, a Christian leader. But Dettmer does this thing where he
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PamDriesell: meets with big Ceos and stuff, and you know who see charts and everything all day, and he just draws a black line horizontal line on a page and says
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PamDriesell: the most. This is the most important graph you’ll ever know about your leadership. And it’s just this line. And he said, because the question you need to always be asking yourself is, are you above the line or below the line?
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PamDriesell: And this in his language? It’s above the line, as being conscious below the line is unconscious.
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PamDriesell: And so I I would say for me, integrity is really checking in with myself, like am I?
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PamDriesell: But I would say in the spirit, or in the false ego like what’s driving me right now? And so for me, integrity has has
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PamDriesell: also includes that sense of really asking that question of myself.
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PamDriesell: where am I right now? Am I reactive in an unconscious way? And how do I? And and Deborah will say, like nobody’s always above the line.
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PamDriesell: but knowing where you are, so that when I can know at certain times, and particularly, I think we’re gonna talk about where where transitions can tend to challenge integrity. But like for me, just just saying, you know what I’m
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PamDriesell: I’m aware that I’m below the line right now, so maybe it’s not a good idea for me to make a big decision, to make a big change like I need to do the work of figuring out what’s going on what is what I’m reacting to instead of responding to
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PamDriesell: so that that has really that image has helped me in terms of
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PamDriesell: just a check on my own integrity, my own fullness, you know, of integrating the inner and the outer. So.
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PamDriesell: yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: That self awareness of of where you are is so essential to living with integrity. Because I think it’s easy for us to get
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Melanie Marsh: kind of on moored in a time of transition, especially if that transition is rocky or in any way complicated. Cultivating that strong sense of self awareness, being able to check in with ourselves and really know where we are not. Re, having to always be reacting emotionally from our lizard brain or.
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PamDriesell: Yeah, that’s right.
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Melanie Marsh: Of ourselves that is not really controllable or easily controllable.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and that can be very hard. I mean.
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PamDriesell: Like here.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: IA. As a as an Niagram? 3. I. It can be hard for me to really know what I’m feeling. In fact, one of the assignments my spiritual director gave me years ago, when I was in Atlanta, she said, Okay, here’s your assignment. Every 30 min I want you to pause where you are, put your hand to your heart and ask yourself, what am I feeling every 30 min, I mean? And it was the hardest assignment I ever had, so it can. It can be hard.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Know what you’re feeling, and even when you come to know what you’re feeling to acknowledge it, and to own it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: to name it, to be honest about it, you know.
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PamDriesell: Is hard. It’s hard work. That’s that’s the inner work that I think.
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PamDriesell: Integrity calls forth from us.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: Yeah.
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PamDriesell: So let’s move into. We talked about just moving into, like, maybe the best way to talk about how
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PamDriesell: transitions can pose particular challenges to our sense of integrity. By just telling some some stories of our transition. So I, we’ve all been through them. And so I don’t know who either one of you can just jump in and and start.
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Melanie Marsh: Julie go for it.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So. So you know, I’ve I’ve transitioned out of
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Julie Pennington-Russell: churches
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Julie Pennington-Russell: 3 times now from San Francisco to Waco, Texas. Big transition from Waco to Decatur from Decatur to here. So you know not that many times over
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Julie Pennington-Russell: 40 years I I will remind you that I’m I from the Baptist tradition. And so you know that as I was describing it earlier to to the team, sort of like the Wild West out here, you know. Search committees go. They they find somebody they call them. It’s all very. You can’t tell your congregation while you’re talking to people, and it, you know. So no bishops involved. No, you know it’s not decently in an order, it is
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so so so I’ve done this 3 times, and I’ll talk just very briefly about a a.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: a transition that was fraught. I think it ended well as well as I could, and that was a piece of the integrity part for me.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: But when I transition from my church in Atlanta, in Decatur.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I mentioned yesterday that moment when I after a very contentious meeting, and I woke up, and my pillow was soaked from tears, and my husband prayed for me. And I you know it was just the lowest of the low. I stayed 3 and a half more years after that very difficult moment. So so, you know, during that time, which also included a 3 month Sabbatical.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: During that time I did some
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Julie Pennington-Russell: good work with my spiritual director and
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I I remember.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So we had. We had staff
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Julie Pennington-Russell: transitions which were very difficult
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and then in I came back from my Sabbatical in 2,014,
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and in that fall we we went through a process together as a congregation of becoming welcoming and affirming. And you know it’s a Baptist church is very new, but our but our community, you know, Decatur is like A, you know, a hub for the Lgdb. Lgbtq.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Plus community. And so we went through that process. It was. It was as smooth, I think as it could be, but still anxiety, anxiety, and and so, you know, I kind of bore that weight.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and it was the day after Easter 2015.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I was not really in a in a
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Julie Pennington-Russell: a moment of conflict.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Really it was more just the soup I was swimming in. I woke up the morning after Easter went to see my spiritual director that day. My appointment was that day, and I sat in her office, and almost to my own bewilderment. I heard myself say.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I have to go.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and it was just that simple, but it but it came from a lot of
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Julie Pennington-Russell: interior work along the way. I remember one dream we talked yesterday about listening to our bodies. I I also believe in listening to our dreams.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I had a dream not long before I told my
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Julie Pennington-Russell: spiritual director I have to go and and it for me was just a symbol of my own dry. Well, I? Yeah, I often don’t remember my dreams, but this one stuck. I dreamed that I was at work.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: but but the room in which I was working was underground. It was tiny, was claustrophobic. There was one dim, naked light bulb overhead, and my job underground with the naked light bulb, was fiddling with wires and switches and screws and nuts and bolts. And I mean, basically the stuff I’m terrible at in the most dismal environment imaginable.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: And so I told my spiritual director about that that morning, and you know, and she said, Yeah, she said, the space that you’re in and working really hard to maintain that institution feels too cramped for you, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: And she said, you know, Julie, you can only operate so long from grim determination.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: She said. You might want to rethink the framework that says.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: if I’m serving God, it’s a privilege to be miserable, because then I’m being sacrificial.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So you know. So that was the moment for me that helped me
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Julie Pennington-Russell: say the words out loud. You know I have to go, that the space
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Julie Pennington-Russell: the container had become too cramped
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Julie Pennington-Russell: for I for who I knew I
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Julie Pennington-Russell: was becoming needed to become
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so you know, I mean, I can say more later. I don’t wanna
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Julie Pennington-Russell: suck up the air.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I can say about how I went about
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Julie Pennington-Russell: letting the congregation know, and sort of that process, because I think it was as healthy as possible.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: So. But but I’ll put a PIN in it there. And
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Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah, say, Melanie.
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Melanie Marsh: Oh, gosh! So many.
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Melanie Marsh: so many good things! The grim determination part I feel
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Melanie Marsh: just. Oh, my gosh! I I remember in a difficult season in my ministry as well. I heard, Reverend Jennifer Watley Maxwell say, you know
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Melanie Marsh: God called you to ministry, not martyrdom.
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Melanie Marsh: Jesus has already died on the ground for us. We don’t need to go up on that cross ourselves.
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Melanie Marsh: and it’s sometimes hard to discern when you’re in the midst of a call.
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Melanie Marsh: whether it’s ministry or martyrdom that is happening. But once you get to that point,
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Melanie Marsh: things can really start to shift for you. So my experience of
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Melanie Marsh: integrity and transition ha! Was sort of the opposite end of the of the call from yours, Julie I went into a call in 2019 that began in a very fraught way.
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Melanie Marsh: I had been living in Cleveland, Ohio, as an and working as an associate pastor, and had been called to a church in Jacksonville, Florida, as a senior pastor and
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Melanie Marsh: I was in my home presbytery.
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Melanie Marsh: It was in a community that I knew well. So I thought that I was going to be going kind of home in this experience, in a lot of ways. It’s my home state as well. So
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Melanie Marsh: I went through the whole process. It was very interesting. It was a church where they had had a pastor there for 40 years.
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Melanie Marsh: who was retiring.
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Melanie Marsh: and we had lots of long conversations during the interview process and Presbyterian. So we have, like a very long kind of candidating and matching process that we go through. And we asked lots of questions, lots of questions. And I said, You know.
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Melanie Marsh: how is this gonna work with me being a a young
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Melanie Marsh: African descent female pastor and the pastor, the only pastor you’ve had for an entire generation is an older white man, and they said, Oh, we’re ready. We’re so ready for this, you know. We’re ready to move this church into the the PC. U.S.A. Of the 20 first century and as it turned out, they weren’t quite as ready as an entire church as the Pnc. Thought they were, and so there was a lot of very strong and
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Melanie Marsh: in some ways violent resistance to my candidacy that didn’t bubble up in the process until very close to the end.
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Melanie Marsh: And so, we’re going through this move. We’re trying to transition into this this
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Melanie Marsh: new call. And
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Melanie Marsh: There was a significant amount. Not the entire church, not maybe even half the church, but a very significant amount of people who were determined not to allow that transition to happen.
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Melanie Marsh: So long story short, we got to the end of the second voting process in the PC. U.S.A. The church has to vote you in as the person to be their pastor. Usually that only takes one vote. But this time there were 2 and the first vote was very close, which does not often happen. It was, yes, to vote me in by about 20 votes out of a congregation of about 700 people.
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Melanie Marsh: And the second time the vote was yes, by 4 votes out of a congregation of about 700 people.
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Melanie Marsh: And so at that point I had a decision to make. Am I gonna take this call, or am I not gonna take this call?
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Melanie Marsh: And
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Melanie Marsh: most people, especially those of you who are Presbyterian on the call right now, are probably thinking. Well, why, the why would anyone take that call knowing what you know about this congregation, and how they feel about you? And that is a lot of what many of my many colleagues said, you know, like, why would anyone take? No, don’t take that call. Don’t take that call
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Melanie Marsh: But for various reasons. It felt like I didn’t have a whole lot of a choice at that moment.
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Melanie Marsh: and the conversation that really shifted things for me was with my brother, who is not a pastor. He’s just a faithful person, but, he said, you know
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Melanie Marsh: there is something to be said about call.
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Melanie Marsh: and that a call is not between you and a church.
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Melanie Marsh: A call is between you and God.
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Melanie Marsh: and God has said yes
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Melanie Marsh: to you, coming to this community.
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Melanie Marsh: For whatever reason
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Melanie Marsh: God has said yes.
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Melanie Marsh: and whether they feel comfortable with that, whether you feel comfortable with that, it feels like this is something you’re gonna have to do.
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Melanie Marsh: and I was like.
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Melanie Marsh: devastated kind of to come to that realization. But
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Melanie Marsh: I said yes.
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Melanie Marsh: and I walked in to that community, and I
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Melanie Marsh: stayed there for 3 years, and it was a tumultuous 3 years, not because of who I was, but because of the the level of conflict and dysfunction that had been
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Melanie Marsh: festering under the surface of that congregation for many years. That had never been addressed, and I learned very quickly that it was my job to sort of
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Melanie Marsh: pull back the layers and address it, open it up, and expose all of that to the sun
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Melanie Marsh: and
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Melanie Marsh: in the end.
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Melanie Marsh: after 3 years. A very hard, very.
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Melanie Marsh: What were the words you said? F. And d. Filling of the cup and depleting of the cup yesterday? Very soul depleting work on my part.
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Melanie Marsh: I felt like the work that I was there to do was done, and I and I took a call to another place that felt much more life affirming for me. But
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Melanie Marsh: in the end
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Melanie Marsh: both myself and the congregation we were both kind of devastated that our time together had been so short. They, the the change in the in the in the congregation really was
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Melanie Marsh: 1 80 from when I arrived to when I left.
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Melanie Marsh: and
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Melanie Marsh: I could never have imagined that I think from the beginning I was kind of like hoping to find, like the best emergency exit route out of that situation. But instead
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Melanie Marsh: of running, instead of just taking the first call that came my way.
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Melanie Marsh: I sat with it, and I said.
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Melanie Marsh: There’s some reason why we are here together, and we’re gonna figure this out together.
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Melanie Marsh: That was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do. But
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Melanie Marsh: it was, I think the right thing to do.
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PamDriesell: I I just love these stories, and I’m I’m pulling on the the common threads. It seems like you know what?
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PamDriesell: What transitions really are about is the the hard work of discerning call.
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PamDriesell: And I just, you know, unfortunately, just like so many other things in in like there’s not like, here’s the checklist, and it works for everybody. You know. Everybody’s
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PamDriesell: process of discernment is different. Everybody’s context is different. And
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PamDriesell: one of my favorite quotes that my husband and I argue about all the time is from Rainy Marie real key, which is, trust your life.
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PamDriesell: It’s always right.
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PamDriesell: And
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PamDriesell: I think the reason I like that is because sometimes it’s really hard for me. There were times when I was like.
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PamDriesell: You know, my last call, like, maybe maybe it it’s easy for me to slip into. I shouldn’t have come. I shouldn’t have stayed. I shouldn’t have this. I shouldn’t have that, you know, like, and to just take a deep breath and go trust your life.
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PamDriesell: It’s right. And and I I think for me, I interpret that kind of in the you know, Tillic understanding of Providence, that, like this moment.
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PamDriesell: has redemptive possibility and redemptive potential in it.
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PamDriesell: And my my calling in that transition moment is to discern those redemptive possibilities and live into them.
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PamDriesell: And and that’s
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PamDriesell: again, as we’ve said, you know not to. It’s hard work.
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PamDriesell: And for me. I also had. I’m gonna talk about my difficult transition. I had some some great transitions that felt really like. I mean, let me say this even about great transitions.
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PamDriesell: All the time
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PamDriesell: congregants are projecting onto us, their greatest hopes, their greatest fears, their greatest, you know. And when we leave, even when it’s a positive like
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PamDriesell: I’m I’m being called to the next thing, and there’s lots of joy. And there’s, you know, a sense of completion. There. There is a sense of loss and grief that people go through and
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PamDriesell: and and that sometimes includes
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PamDriesell: feelings of hurt, and that get projected onto you as you the minister as blame
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PamDriesell: as you know. How can you do this? I mean. So I think there does require kind of a tough skin in that to to
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PamDriesell: not internalize those things, but to give to pastorally. Give people space
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PamDriesell: to
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PamDriesell: express that and oftentimes it’s disappointment in you. It’s you know those kinds of things again, even in the best possible transitions.
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PamDriesell: but but feel free to jump in. We’re we’re one of you. Gonna say something.
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Melanie Marsh: I know I was just agreeing with what you were saying. All of that. Yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I 1 one thing, if I may, that just I you just sparked something in me. I have.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I wonder if you’ve experienced the same thing as well.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: When a woman is a pastor
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Julie Pennington-Russell: and the woman is transitioning out. I have experienced from time to time this very
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Julie Pennington-Russell: interesting dynamic. It’s almost the as though
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Julie Pennington-Russell: people have come to see you as mother.
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Melanie Marsh: Not.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: And it’s like the unwritten rule is that mother does not abandon.
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PamDriesell: Yes.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Like this extra layer of disappointment, anger. You know all the things. And I I’ve I’ve experienced that as well. Yeah.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah, I’ve seen that in other, in other pastors. I don’t. I’ve maybe have experienced it. But I I definitely seen that reaction from people in other congregations.
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PamDriesell: I will tell you that this reminds me of a funny story that I had no intention of telling. But when I I was an organizing pastor of a new church and and stayed there for 11 years, and was getting ready to leave, and I was part of this little
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PamDriesell: morning Bible study and
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PamDriesell: we were having our last gathering in this. Just really great older man retired doctor at 1 point, and I was going to a large Established church. And so I’d come from this, you know, organizing this, you know. And
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PamDriesell: he he was like.
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PamDriesell: my worry for you is that you just don’t have enough teats.
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PamDriesell: and everyone was like
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PamDriesell: every I I was like, what what a and I I mean I would maybe be offended.
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PamDriesell: I mean, I guess I was. But the point was, he was like, what I mean is that people
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PamDriesell: want so much from you, and people see you as a source of nurture. I mean, he’s a doctor, and he’s like, and of course I had heard it as big enough
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PamDriesell: teats, and he was like, I said enough like, There, everybody nurses from you. And he was using it as a very a very innocuous metaphor, which? Yeah.
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PamDriesell: yeah, to your point.
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PamDriesell: You’re the mother.
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PamDriesell: You’re the mother who’s feeding us.
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PamDriesell: How are you going to be that to all these other people? So I do agree, Julie, there is that, added Layer, for I mean, I think anytime a pastor leaves there is a sense of loss, and there can be a sense of a real sense in the congregation of how can you abandon us more so with a motherly figure? And again, all that’s probably very unconscious.
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PamDriesell: But I was going to say about my transition. That was more difficult.
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PamDriesell: I mentioned yesterday there. There were some
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PamDriesell: some scandals that I had to resolve when I first got there, and then there was another one. There was another one. I literally became like a crisis manager in this pastorate, and
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PamDriesell: of course the temptation was to be like.
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PamDriesell: when are we going to get past all these crises? So I can do ministry. And of course the ministry there was
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PamDriesell: helping a congregation through these pastoral betrayals.
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PamDriesell: But that comes with a lot of projection onto the person who didn’t betray them.
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PamDriesell: And you know. So it got very, very complicated, and there was a moment where I was like. Maybe it’s time for me to go, and I took some extra time that summer.
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PamDriesell: gathered with some my best friends in on a little island, and we just talked it out. There was a lot of crying. There was a lot of, and where I landed at the end was, and I
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PamDriesell: I hesitate to make this analogy. But it did remind me so.
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PamDriesell: Yeah, there’s a saying in Southeast Asia, where my son spent some time same same, but different.
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PamDriesell: It reminded me same same, but different, of going through a divorce.
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PamDriesell: Where
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PamDriesell: I
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PamDriesell: in my divorce, you know, I was so committed to that. But it was like, I’m not going to make this decision from
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PamDriesell: a posture of desperation and weakness. And
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PamDriesell: you know, disorientation like, I gotta get my feet under me and
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PamDriesell: and and reassess. So I went away from that some that was, and and like you, Julie, I ended up staying another 3 years.
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PamDriesell: even though I was contemplating and leaving. But I at this kind of corporate it was almost like what do the Quakers call it? Clarity
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PamDriesell: clearness committees
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PamDriesell: saying, You know I’m not.
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PamDriesell: It’s not that I know I need to stay. It’s that I’m not sure.
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PamDriesell: And so I stay, and and then I I continue to discern
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PamDriesell: 3 years later, you know, just without going into specifics, I walked out of a meeting, and it was absolutely a full body. Yes, to like. It’s time for me to go.
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PamDriesell: Yeah, just like yours, Julie. It was like, it’s time
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PamDriesell: I’m not
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PamDriesell: angry. I’m not feeling defeated.
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PamDriesell: I’m not. It’s just time
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PamDriesell: it’s I. I’ve done what I can do here.
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PamDriesell: And
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PamDriesell: And so I remember. I went home, and I said to my husband, you know I’m done. And
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PamDriesell: I had said that before. But he looked at me, and I was like, you know what you know how I know, because it doesn’t really matter to me what you say next.
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PamDriesell: Like I I know it’s time for me to go.
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PamDriesell: and I was able to have a, you know, a a, an exit that was joyful and a celebratory, and not without
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PamDriesell: pain, not without pain.
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PamDriesell: But
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PamDriesell: Again, I noticed those kinds of similarities in y’all stories that there is there. It’s like a Holy Spirit moment where it’s like it’s time.
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PamDriesell: but it come it for me. It was important to come. You know, in that, with that full body yes, not born of fear, not born of.
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PamDriesell: you know. Just total exhaustion, but just, you know, and not that there isn’t may not be a moment again. Discernment is so personal where somebody is just like you know what I I Ca, I actually can’t go on. I had a few moments like that where? But I was able to regroup. And again, in these difficult transitions, I wanna say, and this is a a theme
414
00:48:49.590 –> 00:48:53.900
PamDriesell: for my whole ministry. Is that core group of people
415
00:48:54.882 –> 00:48:56.239
PamDriesell: in my life
416
00:48:56.320 –> 00:49:01.929
PamDriesell: with whom I can really share what’s going on with me.
417
00:49:02.090 –> 00:49:26.634
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, that is that last thing right there, that’s huge. I feel like in in all of this transition time that was very turbulent. The thing that was the most valuable was having that objective, trusted circle of friends, people who are not in the midst of things with you, people who were not in like in the thick of the trauma alongside you who you could just
418
00:49:27.290 –> 00:49:28.480
Melanie Marsh: say.
419
00:49:28.920 –> 00:49:34.199
Melanie Marsh: this is what’s happening right now. This is what’s happening this week, and they could not only help you
420
00:49:34.510 –> 00:49:37.870
Melanie Marsh: discern in some ways, but they could also say.
421
00:49:37.950 –> 00:49:46.319
Melanie Marsh: You’re not crazy like it’s not you. It’s not you. This situation is a little bit bananas and the
422
00:49:46.710 –> 00:50:02.400
Melanie Marsh: They can help kind of reframe and reorient, so that you can go on and not live in that place of just flight, flight, or fight, and feel like you either have to run or do battle in every moment, because that’ll that’ll kill you.
423
00:50:02.710 –> 00:50:03.400
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
424
00:50:03.890 –> 00:50:04.420
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah.
425
00:50:04.420 –> 00:50:06.999
PamDriesell: I will say, too, part of
426
00:50:08.040 –> 00:50:14.189
PamDriesell: My inclination, and part of what I had to think I had to work through
427
00:50:14.320 –> 00:50:17.573
PamDriesell: during those part of those 3 years was
428
00:50:19.260 –> 00:50:26.239
PamDriesell: My own sense of my persona that I’m invested in is, I don’t quit.
429
00:50:26.330 –> 00:50:28.040
PamDriesell: I don’t quit.
430
00:50:28.543 –> 00:50:33.970
PamDriesell: and I had to. That was that was a really
431
00:50:36.828 –> 00:50:42.731
PamDriesell: it it just. I had to wrestle with that and and and give up that
432
00:50:44.460 –> 00:50:53.069
PamDriesell: you know I I had to reframe it. You know I was leaving but I just had to.
433
00:50:53.250 –> 00:51:17.759
PamDriesell: I don’t know that I think that was a can sometimes be kind of a toxic driver. You know, talking about above the line or below the line, like I had to really say, what is, what’s the unconscious like? Push that you feel like you. You know, you’ve gotta be the one duking it out. And you know you what you so those are things that I think
434
00:51:17.900 –> 00:51:32.479
PamDriesell: transitions give us an opportunity to learn more about ourselves and some of our unconscious drives where those have come from, what part of them is healthy. What part of them needs to be let go? All of that is, I think
435
00:51:32.870 –> 00:51:39.450
PamDriesell: those are opportunities in transitions. And we talked earlier. I think, when we talk about transitions.
436
00:51:39.510 –> 00:51:46.129
PamDriesell: what we’re really talking about is discerning call and how to. You know how that.
437
00:51:47.040 –> 00:51:52.469
PamDriesell: how those things are done again, it’s different for everybody.
438
00:51:52.470 –> 00:51:52.979
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
439
00:51:53.520 –> 00:52:11.610
Julie Pennington-Russell: I I think it’s also interesting that there can be a call to the next place. Often that happens, you transition out because there is, you know, a call that you’re considering someplace sometimes, as with, perhaps you know your situation, Pam. My situation.
440
00:52:12.620 –> 00:52:13.569
Julie Pennington-Russell: Was
441
00:52:13.995 –> 00:52:30.870
Julie Pennington-Russell: it was a a call to myself. It was a call to my, to my personhood, and to the person God was helping me to become, and being true to that, and so I and I found that that was harder. It’s harder to be
442
00:52:30.960 –> 00:52:44.450
Julie Pennington-Russell: true to myself to follow the grain in my own wood. Then, you know then to go ahead, and you know, say, yes, I need to go and serve in this other place, you know, this last time I needed to serve
443
00:52:44.730 –> 00:52:49.910
Julie Pennington-Russell: myself. And what was what was doing? And that was hard.
444
00:52:51.000 –> 00:52:51.520
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, yeah.
445
00:52:51.520 –> 00:52:52.832
PamDriesell: Yeah, I think.
446
00:52:53.850 –> 00:53:00.119
PamDriesell: you know, for for both of us really, probably we were in the privileged position of not having to
447
00:53:00.730 –> 00:53:17.329
PamDriesell: take another call just from a financial perspective which does complicate it in the sense of people understanding it. I think people understand, you know, and I’ve often said, like, if I was in a different situation, I would have had to find another call first.
448
00:53:17.410 –> 00:53:19.460
PamDriesell: and that
449
00:53:19.580 –> 00:53:39.550
PamDriesell: can help explain, you know. Well, you’re going to this other thing. But it it is a little more complicated when you’re like, no, actually, I’m just gonna take an extended sabbatical for myself, and you know I love you all. But this relationship has run its course.
450
00:53:39.550 –> 00:53:39.900
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
451
00:53:40.930 –> 00:53:59.909
Julie Pennington-Russell: I will add, you know, financially for us. I it was. It was not possible, for, you know, just for our livelihood, for me to step away with no, with no income. And so, as part of my departure, the very day after I sat in my spiritual director’s office and said, Gosh! I have to go.
452
00:53:59.910 –> 00:54:20.889
Julie Pennington-Russell: I followed that up before I lost my courage, and made an appointment with our chair of our deacons, so I could tell her I have to go. But in that conversation I just said very matter of factly, and I will need 8 months of severance, and I will need this from the church, and thank you for your understand? I mean, I was just very, you know, just kind of put it out there.
453
00:54:21.244 –> 00:54:34.860
Julie Pennington-Russell: Didn’t really know what what might happen then, but the church, you know. But she understood, and the deacons understood, and that, you know, when a church has behaved badly. There’s sort of this collective. Okay, we get it, you know.
454
00:54:34.860 –> 00:54:35.510
Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
455
00:54:35.950 –> 00:54:37.969
Julie Pennington-Russell: So, yeah.
456
00:54:37.970 –> 00:55:01.984
PamDriesell: Julie, that’s a really important I I think that’s very difficult for women more so than you know, and again hate to make these broad generalizations, but good for you. And I don’t know if you wanna talk more about how or Melanie, but either of you, how that has evolved for you that sense of like, Hey, I’m I’m gonna ask for what I need and what is fair and what is
457
00:55:02.915 –> 00:55:07.014
PamDriesell: tell us something about how that’s evolved in you
458
00:55:07.715 –> 00:55:31.250
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, at that very same church where all of this fraught stuff happened on my way in one. And one of the things. It was a community that was the cost of living was much higher than where I was coming from at at the outset, and so, when we were in the midst of our negotiations, I had said, you know, I’m gonna need a little more of a housing allowance, which is something that they do in the in the Presbyterian Church. Probably they do at the Baptist Church, and other churches, too.
459
00:55:31.497 –> 00:55:47.330
Melanie Marsh: In order to like live in the community, which is something that you would like me to do. And we’re having this conversation back and forth over email. And I think maybe some people on the Pnc didn’t know that I was copied on the email thread that was going back and forth. But when I said that they were like, how dare she?
460
00:55:47.330 –> 00:55:49.209
Melanie Marsh: How dare she ask for more money.
461
00:55:49.270 –> 00:56:07.800
Melanie Marsh: Who does she think she is? It wasn’t until oh, by the way, I’m still on this conversation. That people were like. Oh, I’m I mean, the the Pnc. Chair said. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. That you had to bear witness to that part of the conversation, but I was like, no, it’s okay. I think that it’s important for us to
462
00:56:07.800 –> 00:56:25.489
Melanie Marsh: recognize that you know where we’re our our perceptions of what’s happening may not be matching. I still think you guys should reconsider this situation. And at that time they didn’t. But I think later on in the call
463
00:56:25.490 –> 00:56:27.973
Melanie Marsh: there was a moment where?
464
00:56:29.887 –> 00:56:38.389
Melanie Marsh: something happened. My my office was broken into and and vandalized while I was there, and that was, I think, the moment where they were like.
465
00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:45.259
Melanie Marsh: yeah, there’s something deeper going on here within our congregation. And
466
00:56:46.350 –> 00:56:49.120
Melanie Marsh: at that time I said, Okay, look.
467
00:56:49.460 –> 00:56:58.089
Melanie Marsh: I’m going to need to take 4 weeks off. I’m going to need you to pay me, and I’m going to need you to also make it so that I can get some serious therapy
468
00:56:58.400 –> 00:56:59.265
Melanie Marsh: and
469
00:57:00.320 –> 00:57:05.519
Melanie Marsh: they said. Yes, they said yes, absolutely. And I think the difference was to Julie’s point.
470
00:57:05.530 –> 00:57:10.610
Melanie Marsh: They understood at that point. After everything we’ve been through over the last year and a half
471
00:57:11.100 –> 00:57:12.660
Melanie Marsh: that they
472
00:57:12.790 –> 00:57:15.739
Melanie Marsh: they had a part to play in
473
00:57:15.780 –> 00:57:29.630
Melanie Marsh: what had been unfolding in our relationship, and that they needed to also play a role in getting that relationship back to some sort of health and to continue to be sustainable.
474
00:57:30.490 –> 00:57:44.649
Melanie Marsh: And so I think that was a big shift in in their understanding, and that was, I think, one of the turning points in our relationship that shifted it from the like antagonistic to the more of a partnership relationship going forward.
475
00:57:47.090 –> 00:57:48.360
Melanie Marsh: Oh, Julie, you’re muted.
476
00:57:48.540 –> 00:57:49.589
PamDriesell: Julie, you’re muted.
477
00:57:50.480 –> 00:57:54.568
Julie Pennington-Russell: Sorry we have a dog if you bark while I was
478
00:57:55.755 –> 00:58:00.214
Julie Pennington-Russell: no, I think that’s brilliant. I do, Melanie, and so brave.
479
00:58:01.010 –> 00:58:24.939
Julie Pennington-Russell: I for me the the whole trajectory of advocating for myself is, I mean, you know, when I was 22 I was terrible at it, I mean, and my compensation reflected. You know my, my really my unwillingness to to step up, and and probably it it was that crisis at the church in Atlanta.
480
00:58:25.050 –> 00:58:53.268
Julie Pennington-Russell: where I advocated for myself. That helped me in coming to Washington. Be, you know, just step up to the table and and assume the best, and assume. And as it turns out, this church met those expectations, and it was, it was helpful. I don’t know if it’s because I’m a brilliant negotiator, because I’m really not you know, it’s like, we’re always gonna have a hand in my heart. And you know. But
481
00:58:53.660 –> 00:59:08.769
Julie Pennington-Russell: But it worked out. It worked out well. And and now I’m contemplating in this next season, you know, I’m I’m 63. I’ll be 64 in a few months, and so, you know, I’m in the season of thinking what what’s next? What’s that next season?
482
00:59:08.770 –> 00:59:28.920
Julie Pennington-Russell: And I don’t know if retirement is the right word but transition into the A great what next? And if I don’t know if that’s 3 years, 5 years, whatever but but that is coming. And now I get to think about that kind of transition. And I think it’s gonna be positive and hopeful. And I want it to be good for this church.
483
00:59:28.950 –> 00:59:29.840
Julie Pennington-Russell: So
484
00:59:30.050 –> 00:59:30.950
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah.
485
00:59:31.720 –> 00:59:34.490
PamDriesell: My husband calls it rewirement.
486
00:59:35.710 –> 00:59:37.880
Julie Pennington-Russell: I love that.
487
00:59:37.970 –> 00:59:45.067
Julie Pennington-Russell: Oh, I’m stealing that rewirement.
488
00:59:47.672 –> 00:59:48.537
PamDriesell: I think
489
00:59:50.310 –> 00:59:55.721
PamDriesell: Wanna, I just wanna share something that as we’ve been talking that’s come up for me.
490
00:59:56.750 –> 00:59:57.870
PamDriesell: yeah.
491
00:59:58.040 –> 01:00:01.391
PamDriesell: you know, is in the process of discernment.
492
01:00:02.010 –> 01:00:03.559
PamDriesell: What are
493
01:00:05.020 –> 01:00:08.860
PamDriesell: coming up with like criteria? Right? Because
494
01:00:09.080 –> 01:00:13.369
PamDriesell: sometimes I don’t know. People are. People can throw around like
495
01:00:15.050 –> 01:00:23.270
PamDriesell: you know God called. But how? How do you know it’s God calling, you know? And
496
01:00:23.706 –> 01:00:27.980
PamDriesell: again, sometimes it is just that like, I know that I know
497
01:00:28.010 –> 01:00:29.940
PamDriesell: like this is the time.
498
01:00:31.640 –> 01:00:37.990
PamDriesell: but I I also I’m a 7 on the enneagram for those of you who are like. So
499
01:00:38.970 –> 01:00:44.350
PamDriesell: what I’m about to share with you that I globbed on to in my literally late teens
500
01:00:44.975 –> 01:00:49.100
PamDriesell: was a quote. I’d read Mother Teresa biography of Mother Teresa.
501
01:00:49.240 –> 01:00:54.597
PamDriesell: and she had gone when she was a young girl, to her
502
01:00:55.070 –> 01:01:01.650
PamDriesell: spiritual guide, and said, You know I’m trying to discern my am I called, you know, to the sisterhood and
503
01:01:02.230 –> 01:01:06.910
PamDriesell: and his response was profound. Joy of the heart
504
01:01:07.230 –> 01:01:09.670
PamDriesell: will indicate the path you should take.
505
01:01:09.920 –> 01:01:15.090
PamDriesell: You must enter it, even though you enter a way full of difficulties.
506
01:01:15.280 –> 01:01:16.190
Julie Pennington-Russell: The.
507
01:01:16.540 –> 01:01:21.903
PamDriesell: And that has been a guiding a guiding principle for me.
508
01:01:22.950 –> 01:01:24.290
PamDriesell: You know that.
509
01:01:25.760 –> 01:01:37.619
PamDriesell: Wh where is the pull of joy? It’s it’s the ignition kind of principle of like, not what you should do, but what what feels like the future is opening up and not closing down, and
510
01:01:38.021 –> 01:01:44.509
PamDriesell: and I think again some of those particularly when I was in that very difficult situation.
511
01:01:44.905 –> 01:01:51.669
PamDriesell: In some ways, you know, it wasn’t all joy and cotton candy, and you know but it was.
512
01:01:51.810 –> 01:02:05.691
PamDriesell: There was still some profound joy in the actual pasturing of people, and but discerning, even though you’re in a way full of difficulties. When when do the difficulties outweigh? What’s life giving
513
01:02:06.290 –> 01:02:12.939
PamDriesell: And again for me that kind of discernment? I am also extreme extrovert.
514
01:02:13.120 –> 01:02:19.080
PamDriesell: I can. I can get more clarity on that through conversation with people who are
515
01:02:19.140 –> 01:02:20.860
PamDriesell: asking me good questions.
516
01:02:23.320 –> 01:02:24.280
Julie Pennington-Russell: Gosh.
517
01:02:24.660 –> 01:02:48.530
Julie Pennington-Russell: okay. So I so Pam, you and I, I think, are very different in that regard. In fact, when I was listening to you about the community that helped you in your discernment. I I love that, and I think oh, gosh! That would be so lovely! I am a raging introvert. So you know. So for me it all, it happens inside, and so so
518
01:02:48.877 –> 01:03:02.429
Julie Pennington-Russell: besides, my husband and my spiritual director, I really did not have a community of people. But what I did was I began to notice in my reading in my listening. You know, to podcast and whatever.
519
01:03:02.430 –> 01:03:15.610
Julie Pennington-Russell: I, I I listen to things that would shimmer for me, that that in other places might not have shimmered, or, you know, risen up for me, and and so like, for instance and I, I wrote some of these down.
520
01:03:17.352 –> 01:03:22.320
Julie Pennington-Russell: gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote about his conviction that
521
01:03:22.320 –> 01:03:48.480
Julie Pennington-Russell: human beings are born not just once and forever, but but that life obliges us over and over again to give birth to ourselves. And I might have read. I I think I read that probably a dozen times before it actually stood up on a page and waved at me, and I said, Oh, there’s something here for me, Camu. In the midst of winter I found there was within me an invincible summer.
522
01:03:48.920 –> 01:04:15.369
Julie Pennington-Russell: and it was just like my heart was saying, Julie, there’s a summer there you’re in a wintertime, but you know something is rising. And so, you know I I I paid attention. Thomas Merton. My life is a listening god, sister speaking. My salvation is to hear and respond. And so you know. So th those kinds of things that were very they were. They were way more internal for me than gathering the sisters or the circle of
523
01:04:15.400 –> 01:04:19.269
Julie Pennington-Russell: with wise ones, which is also a great idea. You know.
524
01:04:19.270 –> 01:04:34.670
PamDriesell: Yeah, no, I love that. You said that because I I am very much aware that you know we we all do this differently. And although ultimately it is something that arises from within for me, I need
525
01:04:34.730 –> 01:04:37.520
PamDriesell: to in order to access that
526
01:04:37.600 –> 01:04:48.950
PamDriesell: I need external processing with people. I trust. So it’s you know. Again, I love that. You’re that your process. It’s different. And and I think that’s part of the story. Here.
527
01:04:48.950 –> 01:04:49.983
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, yeah.
528
01:04:51.290 –> 01:04:52.529
Julie Pennington-Russell: I think so, too.
529
01:04:52.850 –> 01:04:58.922
Melanie Marsh: That that profound joy of the heart. And even when the path is marked with difficulty, thing
530
01:04:59.450 –> 01:05:11.857
Melanie Marsh: calls to mind a a story of like my when I finally knew that it was the right call to take to move out of the the difficult time that I had been in in my previous call.
531
01:05:12.970 –> 01:05:17.420
Melanie Marsh: so a story time, a little bit of story time. In 20
532
01:05:17.470 –> 01:05:26.679
Melanie Marsh: 6, 17, I went to the Women’s March on Washington with my presbytery in Cleveland we sent a delegation of of
533
01:05:26.840 –> 01:05:40.229
Melanie Marsh: people, pastors, and lay people, and for that march we all made T-shirts pink t-shirts that said women’s march on the front, and then had a slogan of our own choosing on the back, and the back of mine said.
534
01:05:40.280 –> 01:05:47.460
Melanie Marsh: Think this is a safe place where I can say this radical feminist, Christian minister for words, radical feminist, Christian minister.
535
01:05:47.820 –> 01:06:01.369
Melanie Marsh: and one of my parishioners took a picture of me at the march with that image of that, those words on the back of it, as we were walking through the thing, and that image lived on my social media from for years after that
536
01:06:01.830 –> 01:06:30.669
Melanie Marsh: and during this time, when this transition was happening into this new church, and the people didn’t want me to come. This image became sort of like a flash point for the group who felt like I should not be the person to lead them in ministry. And it was widely circulated around the community and throughout the church, and not just the church, but the wider community like. I was notorious by the time I got there for having worn this shirt as in a point in my life.
537
01:06:30.974 –> 01:06:46.179
Melanie Marsh: And people felt lots of different ways about it. But I got a lot of negative responses about it. So this sort of dogged me through much of my time there and people were always like, well, just make sure you don’t wear that shirt to church.
538
01:06:46.220 –> 01:06:49.616
Melanie Marsh: And I was like, Okay, fine. I’m not going to. But
539
01:06:50.460 –> 01:06:52.909
Melanie Marsh: As I was in the process of
540
01:06:52.960 –> 01:07:06.169
Melanie Marsh: conversation with the church I am with now. One of the conversations that we had with one of the members of the committee was, you know, it’s been really hard to find anything about who you are on social media.
541
01:07:06.180 –> 01:07:12.889
Melanie Marsh: It’s like you don’t have a presence there. And I was like, Well, that’s very intentional because of this experience I’ve had in my last church.
542
01:07:13.296 –> 01:07:24.059
Melanie Marsh: But the one thing that I did find was this old account that you had from Twitter that had a picture of you on it that said, you know, Radical feminist Christian minister.
543
01:07:24.290 –> 01:07:32.489
Melanie Marsh: and so I took that to the to the rest of the committee, and I showed it to them, and we all looked around at each other and said.
544
01:07:32.840 –> 01:07:35.119
Melanie Marsh: You guys, I think we found our pastor.
545
01:07:35.120 –> 01:07:36.819
PamDriesell: Wow! That’s great.
546
01:07:36.820 –> 01:07:37.660
Julie Pennington-Russell: Love it.
547
01:07:37.960 –> 01:07:49.680
Melanie Marsh: And they all said, Yeah, and I went, and they told me that story, and that was more that I knew that I knew that this was the right move to make.
548
01:07:50.170 –> 01:08:01.069
Melanie Marsh: But when I had to explain to my congregation, and especially to that Pnc. That had called me, that had stood by my side through like this battle that we had all gone through over the last 3 and a half years.
549
01:08:02.420 –> 01:08:06.920
Melanie Marsh: I told 2 of my closest friends from that committee that story.
550
01:08:07.090 –> 01:08:19.389
Melanie Marsh: and the 3 of us just cried because they knew we had been through because of this one thing about who I had said I was at 1 point, and they said, You have to go.
551
01:08:19.990 –> 01:08:20.740
PamDriesell: Yeah.
552
01:08:21.123 –> 01:08:30.320
Melanie Marsh: And life here in this new context has not always been easy. It has been a path marked by a lot of difficulties, but the
553
01:08:30.439 –> 01:08:34.899
Melanie Marsh: joy of my heart has far outweighed
554
01:08:34.979 –> 01:08:41.939
Melanie Marsh: the difficulties of the living in this place, and I hope that it continues to do so.
555
01:08:42.090 –> 01:08:42.770
Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
556
01:08:42.779 –> 01:08:43.837
PamDriesell: I love that.
557
01:08:44.189 –> 01:08:44.869
Julie Pennington-Russell: So.
558
01:08:45.300 –> 01:08:47.758
PamDriesell: And I, I think, like
559
01:08:48.760 –> 01:08:50.440
PamDriesell: similar to
560
01:08:51.340 –> 01:08:52.953
PamDriesell: developing the
561
01:08:54.689 –> 01:09:01.260
PamDriesell: inner. You know, self advocate right right to where you you’re advocating for yourself for
562
01:09:01.270 –> 01:09:06.489
PamDriesell: whether it’s pay or whatever is this the inner voice that says.
563
01:09:07.069 –> 01:09:09.070
PamDriesell: you know you deserve to be somewhere
564
01:09:09.319 –> 01:09:26.159
PamDriesell: that celebrates you and your gifts, and who you are. Not that there’s never negative feedback or or constructive feedback. Not that there’s never a problem, but that kind of the general ethos is we celebrate
565
01:09:26.609 –> 01:09:36.960
PamDriesell: who you are, your gifts, your your pastor, we celebrate you like that’s healthy to to expect that for yourself.
566
01:09:37.930 –> 01:09:38.620
PamDriesell: Yeah.
567
01:09:38.620 –> 01:09:39.260
Julie Pennington-Russell: Absolutely.
568
01:09:39.260 –> 01:09:40.270
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, exactly.
569
01:09:40.569 –> 01:09:41.469
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
570
01:09:41.589 –> 01:09:42.309
Julie Pennington-Russell: yeah.
571
01:09:42.310 –> 01:09:45.060
Melanie Marsh: Be able to live into your fully authentic self
572
01:09:45.260 –> 01:09:49.889
Melanie Marsh: as a member of this community, and not have to
573
01:09:50.080 –> 01:09:55.100
Melanie Marsh: compromise your integrity in order to to continue to live within your call.
574
01:09:55.430 –> 01:09:56.150
PamDriesell: Yes.
575
01:09:56.340 –> 01:10:18.080
Julie Pennington-Russell: I want to point out that when I was in seminary there was none of this talk. I mean none of this talk. You you know you you should be gauged your competency as as a pastor. By how quick you could get to the hospital, how adeptly you could lead a meeting. And and yeah, I I mean, it was none of this.
576
01:10:18.170 –> 01:10:30.981
Julie Pennington-Russell: Who are you, and who is God helping you to be? And how do you listen for that. And also I’m I’m so grateful for the you know, the shifts that have happened in theological education. This is important.
577
01:10:31.920 –> 01:10:36.548
PamDriesell: Do you? Do you think it’s happened in theological education? I guess I I’m
578
01:10:37.210 –> 01:10:40.449
Julie Pennington-Russell: I’m assuming cause we’re talking here, you know, but maybe not.
579
01:10:40.450 –> 01:10:53.406
PamDriesell: I’m talking about it here. But this is like beyond the the program, and and that’s why I’m so grateful for things like like iron sharpening, Aaron. I do think it’s absolutely committed to these kinds of conversations.
580
01:10:53.920 –> 01:11:00.130
PamDriesell: you know. Not that knowing how to lead a meeting isn’t important, but it it’s gotta exactly.
581
01:11:00.130 –> 01:11:01.599
Julie Pennington-Russell: Right right? And I think.
582
01:11:01.600 –> 01:11:21.219
Melanie Marsh: Just the mere fact that, like a place like Princeton Seminary, is willing to sponsor this kind of venue and mill you to be able to talk about things like this is a testament to the fact that someone somewhere recognizes that these kinds of conversations need to happen. And if they’re not happening in the classroom, they need to make space for them to happen at some other place.
583
01:11:22.840 –> 01:11:23.255
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
584
01:11:26.560 –> 01:11:33.240
PamDriesell: any any other mustays that you all are feeling around this integrity transition.
585
01:11:33.400 –> 01:11:38.766
PamDriesell: I I think one of the things that I had noted again in the
586
01:11:39.160 –> 01:11:41.029
PamDriesell: in transitions.
587
01:11:42.820 –> 01:11:45.289
PamDriesell: I think part of what
588
01:11:45.890 –> 01:12:01.120
PamDriesell: feels difficult to balance in terms of integrity is this, I think in in probably every tradition. There is some level of, you know. Secrecy you know, like your confidentiality versus transparency. When do you tell people
589
01:12:01.140 –> 01:12:08.040
PamDriesell: I’m thinking about? You do the next thing timing those things in terms of
590
01:12:08.790 –> 01:12:09.750
PamDriesell: you know.
591
01:12:10.890 –> 01:12:20.130
PamDriesell: When when do you tell people in the church either a personnel committee or I don’t know if you all have any thoughts about that.
592
01:12:22.690 –> 01:12:28.959
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, I when I when I left Atlanta, I think we had a a pretty good process in place.
593
01:12:29.040 –> 01:12:58.879
Julie Pennington-Russell: There was a real need for confidentiality in the very beginning, because I actually stayed a month, I from the day I sat down at Panera next to Emory with our deacon chair and said, I’ve got to go, and you know, she cried, and I I let me let me say, let me just deviate for a minute. In all of my transitions from San Francisco to Texas, to Texas, to Decatur. There was a moment when I think I started crying on a Wednesday, and didn’t stop until
594
01:12:58.880 –> 01:13:12.290
Julie Pennington-Russell: till Saturday, and a lot of it was sadness, so much of it was anxiety. Cause anxiety is just sort of been, you know, a constant companion at my elbow and and in this transition
595
01:13:12.620 –> 01:13:19.659
Julie Pennington-Russell: I don’t think I shed one tier from the time I just said I need to go. There was like this. Very
596
01:13:19.940 –> 01:13:22.260
Julie Pennington-Russell: calm sense of
597
01:13:22.400 –> 01:13:31.942
Julie Pennington-Russell: this is right, and this is good, and all will, all will be well. And so so yeah, no no tears but but I
598
01:13:32.800 –> 01:13:36.370
Julie Pennington-Russell: a piece of the integrity part for me
599
01:13:36.390 –> 01:13:37.710
Julie Pennington-Russell: was that
600
01:13:37.930 –> 01:13:42.910
Julie Pennington-Russell: I needed for my own self to name with some group
601
01:13:43.090 –> 01:13:45.880
Julie Pennington-Russell: the the pain that had happened.
602
01:13:45.900 –> 01:13:47.250
Julie Pennington-Russell: the the
603
01:13:47.380 –> 01:13:57.630
Julie Pennington-Russell: actions that had been so devastating. I needed to name that as I went, but I really also thought that the entire congregation was not the body that needed to hear that.
604
01:13:57.720 –> 01:14:22.099
Julie Pennington-Russell: So I have still in my files. I have, you know, Dec. Departure from this church, and in that folder I have a letter to the deacons. I have a letter to the personnel team, and I have a per a letter to the congregation, and in the letter to the personnel team I was able to say, this happened. This happened. This happened. My children were ostracized, my family was threatened. My.
605
01:14:22.100 –> 01:14:45.200
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know all that I was just able to name it, and that for me was was important, because there’s a piece of me that just sort of wants to make it all okay. And you just say happy. Goodbye. And it’s been good, and I’m so grateful, and all that, and so much of that is true, but there had to be a place where I could name the pain, and just say, we’re looking each other in the eye now
606
01:14:45.320 –> 01:14:50.120
Julie Pennington-Russell: there’s there’s been much to celebrate, and there’s been much that was just
607
01:14:50.200 –> 01:14:51.260
Julie Pennington-Russell: crappy.
608
01:14:52.094 –> 01:14:52.830
Julie Pennington-Russell: So
609
01:14:53.545 –> 01:14:54.160
Julie Pennington-Russell: so.
610
01:14:54.160 –> 01:15:14.608
PamDriesell: Usually I I think that is a gift to the congregation. Again discerning what the right group is to hear that so that it can become a learning experience for them as a congregation beyond your departure. So I I think that’s really critical. And finding the right place
611
01:15:15.640 –> 01:15:20.300
PamDriesell: And again, I think that comes with getting to that point where you’re like.
612
01:15:21.050 –> 01:15:22.200
PamDriesell: It’s time.
613
01:15:22.510 –> 01:15:27.820
PamDriesell: you know, and it’s not because I’m pissed off. It’s not because I’m this like
614
01:15:27.890 –> 01:15:31.480
PamDriesell: God’s calling me, and I’m going to leave telling the truth.
615
01:15:31.480 –> 01:15:31.970
Julie Pennington-Russell: Point.
616
01:15:32.280 –> 01:15:40.340
PamDriesell: You know, and and discerning who needs to know what of that truth? So that we can all learn and grow from it.
617
01:15:40.530 –> 01:15:41.220
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
618
01:15:41.660 –> 01:15:42.370
Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
619
01:15:42.859 –> 01:15:49.140
Melanie Marsh: Yeah. I found, too, that, like the personnel Committee has been sort of that that place, that
620
01:15:49.200 –> 01:16:00.046
Melanie Marsh: place that felt like the safe repository for for the fullness of the experience of why and how and what led me to this decision?
621
01:16:00.800 –> 01:16:05.519
Melanie Marsh: and I think if you’re talking about specifics on timing. I’ve
622
01:16:05.820 –> 01:16:09.929
Melanie Marsh: in my transitions that I’ve experienced. I found that, you know.
623
01:16:10.230 –> 01:16:20.281
Melanie Marsh: 3 to 6 weeks is plenty of time. I would actually probably air toward the shorter end of that, you know, for at the, you know ideal, perhaps.
624
01:16:21.250 –> 01:16:24.140
Melanie Marsh: I and and I tended not to
625
01:16:24.580 –> 01:16:28.280
Melanie Marsh: share that information until you know.
626
01:16:28.970 –> 01:16:37.936
Melanie Marsh: like certain milestones have been met in the in the other place, so that I knew that things were just gonna go smoothly onward.
627
01:16:38.750 –> 01:16:50.462
Melanie Marsh: but yeah, I I’ve never wanted to belabor a a goodbye. And actually, some of the most effective goodbyes I’ve seen in this kind of context have been short, you know.
628
01:16:51.350 –> 01:16:51.980
Melanie Marsh: Wow!
629
01:16:51.980 –> 01:16:54.530
PamDriesell: Because things do immediately change.
630
01:16:55.390 –> 01:16:57.010
PamDriesell: The moment they know you’re leaving.
631
01:16:57.010 –> 01:16:58.930
Melanie Marsh: Your time is done. Once you announce.
632
01:16:58.930 –> 01:17:03.800
PamDriesell: It’s done, I used to say to my essay, it’s good to leave your only job now is to leave well.
633
01:17:03.920 –> 01:17:13.009
PamDriesell: and don’t I? I think there’s a tendency like, Oh, I gotta tie this not up and tie this and tie that, and tie, you know, like, and I think.
634
01:17:13.450 –> 01:17:14.110
Melanie Marsh: Figure it out.
635
01:17:14.110 –> 01:17:16.999
PamDriesell: Say I will leave things unfinished.
636
01:17:17.080 –> 01:17:26.269
PamDriesell: and it will be someone else’s job. And my only job now is to tie up my relationships to Pastor. People through this
637
01:17:26.674 –> 01:17:34.365
PamDriesell: goodbye. And so that I don’t know. There’s just a lot of temptation, I think. There at the end to like, you know, I gotta finish everything
638
01:17:34.670 –> 01:17:38.559
PamDriesell: one really big learning for me. I just finished it an interim
639
01:17:39.130 –> 01:17:39.895
PamDriesell: and
640
01:17:40.700 –> 01:17:44.510
PamDriesell: It was a little more than a year and a half, and
641
01:17:45.340 –> 01:17:52.360
PamDriesell: my motto became my little mantra became during it. You know what I’m learning. Life itself isn’t in a room.
642
01:17:53.290 –> 01:18:09.619
PamDriesell: and I had so many moments of like Epiphany. During this interim where I was, I thought to myself, I should have thought of myself as an interim at all of my other calls because we’re all interrupts, and the interim kind of posture
643
01:18:09.630 –> 01:18:10.510
PamDriesell: is
644
01:18:11.660 –> 01:18:13.630
PamDriesell: holds things lightly.
645
01:18:14.390 –> 01:18:28.949
PamDriesell: I’m not. I wasn’t like overly attached to the outcomes. I was much more like, what do you all think about this now? I did that in my other, but there was a a shift in myself of having an interim consciousness
646
01:18:29.180 –> 01:18:29.915
PamDriesell: that
647
01:18:31.220 –> 01:18:47.569
PamDriesell: that I think in retrospect I would have if I take another full time call, you know, or a installed call, I would still want to hang on to that kind of and even in just in life I was thinking, like, we’re all in a rooms. We’re all we’re we’re just passing through.
648
01:18:47.570 –> 01:18:55.782
Melanie Marsh: That’s passing through. I love that. Yeah, I mean, a job is no more permanent than we are, you know. Yeah.
649
01:18:56.140 –> 01:19:07.829
Julie Pennington-Russell: Very phrase. That very phrase has been spoken in my circles this very week, and that observation. And it’s so true. It’s also.
650
01:19:07.830 –> 01:19:30.297
Julie Pennington-Russell: when you think about it. A very contemplative way of being a pastor, you know, when you say, Okay, this is here in front of me. Now I receive it without judgment, without trying to control outcomes. I hold it lightly, you know the outcome is enhanced bigger than mine. Here we go, and what’s the next most loving thing I can do and say. And here we you know, it’s
651
01:19:30.660 –> 01:19:34.869
Julie Pennington-Russell: so. I love that I really do. I think it’s when we.
652
01:19:34.920 –> 01:19:50.155
Julie Pennington-Russell: when we think of ourselves otherly when we think of ourselves as this is mine. This is my place. I you know I don’t know. There, there’s a different persona, or there’s not a persona. There’s just a different energy from which
653
01:19:51.030 –> 01:19:52.530
Julie Pennington-Russell: we, you know.
654
01:19:52.720 –> 01:19:53.120
Melanie Marsh: Yeah.
655
01:19:53.120 –> 01:19:53.475
PamDriesell: And
656
01:19:53.990 –> 01:20:04.489
PamDriesell: I I totally agree there it’s it’s something about energy. And I would say, You know, having this interim experience. And then, looking back, I I certainly wasn’t consciously
657
01:20:05.060 –> 01:20:12.200
PamDriesell: you know, like this is mine. This this might become my legacy, this I I wasn’t conscious of that, but I
658
01:20:12.490 –> 01:20:32.030
PamDriesell: in as an interim you’re conscious of like none of this is mine. Not like this is, I am so passing through, and that energy is a little different. I mean, you know, it’s so I I think you know, in some ways we’re always in transitions
659
01:20:32.050 –> 01:20:35.690
PamDriesell: and being conscious of being.
660
01:20:35.850 –> 01:20:43.070
PamDriesell: you know, having integrity in all of those transitions that really defines who we are and what we are.
661
01:20:43.340 –> 01:20:44.000
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
662
01:20:44.630 –> 01:20:45.400
Julie Pennington-Russell: Gosh.
663
01:20:46.540 –> 01:20:53.239
Julie Pennington-Russell: when you think about it, you know the work of the pastor. So much of it relates to just our own personal work.
664
01:20:53.240 –> 01:20:53.710
PamDriesell: Yes.
665
01:20:53.710 –> 01:20:57.510
Julie Pennington-Russell: Our own personal availability to the holy and
666
01:20:57.800 –> 01:21:02.709
Julie Pennington-Russell: honesty about, and talk about integrity and honesty, about who we are and
667
01:21:03.010 –> 01:21:04.609
Julie Pennington-Russell: what we’re about. And
668
01:21:05.200 –> 01:21:06.060
Julie Pennington-Russell: us.
669
01:21:06.950 –> 01:21:07.760
Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
670
01:21:10.512 –> 01:21:16.480
PamDriesell: Tais, do you have some? I think we’re are we right about time for questions? Some.
671
01:21:17.800 –> 01:21:23.769
PamDriesell: I’m wondering particularly who are what our participants are thinking about in terms of their own.
672
01:21:23.910 –> 01:21:29.174
PamDriesell: I’m imagining that they are maybe going through some unique things around transitions.
673
01:21:29.580 –> 01:21:42.469
Thais Carter: Sure I would encourage everybody. If you have specific questions, you can start dropping them in the chat now. But one of the things that I thought was interesting is you know, as you all were talking about the way that ministry itself has been changing someone kind of named the fact that
674
01:21:42.600 –> 01:22:02.619
Thais Carter: ministry is changing faster than congregations are changing, and that so often they are still very much caught up and kind of I won’t use like old school, but like traditional ways of thinking about. You know what the pastor does, how they come in and out, what it looks like to support them hold them accountable. And so
675
01:22:02.780 –> 01:22:26.190
Thais Carter: thoughts about, I mean, I don’t think we can necessarily be like man. Wouldn’t it be great if carations were super different? But specifically, you know, what are some of the ways that before the transition is happening? Are there ways of thinking about forming our lay leaders that create the kinds of personnel, committee, dynamics, and structures that when the time comes for you to ask
676
01:22:26.190 –> 01:22:33.659
Thais Carter: for something that you need, or to start the conversation about a transition that your congregation is in a better place to
677
01:22:33.660 –> 01:22:44.239
Thais Carter: support that. Well, I think we’ve talked a lot about integrity on our end. How do we, as leaders, form lay leaders who can operate with integrity during the transition as well.
678
01:22:46.850 –> 01:23:10.849
Julie Pennington-Russell: That is a great point. I I mean it is, and I think that it for for my departure for my transition that I’ve been speaking about. That had been the work for me, for you know, 7 of the 8 years I’ve been there. So by the time it was time for me to go. By and large we had really healthy.
679
01:23:10.850 –> 01:23:29.946
Julie Pennington-Russell: you know, spirit filled people. That also became part of the contention, and that was part of the river. The the that drove you know, that carried me out was how dare she insist that church leaders, that church leaders, you know.
680
01:23:30.460 –> 01:23:50.451
Julie Pennington-Russell: adhere to ethical practices. How you know. How dare she say out loud that you know, if if you are organizing home meetings to talk about the pastor behind her back. You are really not eligible to be a deacon, you know. You’re not eligible, you know, and I just named it. I just said out loud,
681
01:23:50.790 –> 01:23:54.549
Thais Carter: What a high standard you’re setting, Julie! Oh, my gosh.
682
01:23:54.550 –> 01:23:56.010
PamDriesell: So unreasonable.
683
01:23:57.190 –> 01:24:10.310
Julie Pennington-Russell: So, but by the time I left, and so so I would say, you know, to the person who suggested that I don’t see the chat on my on my screen, so I don’t know who that was, but it was a great point, and I think the more we can do to build healthy.
684
01:24:10.550 –> 01:24:15.309
Julie Pennington-Russell: healthy systems and people, the better it will be for everybody.
685
01:24:16.630 –> 01:24:17.520
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, yeah.
686
01:24:18.630 –> 01:24:20.032
PamDriesell: I I would.
687
01:24:21.190 –> 01:24:24.809
PamDriesell: I’ve thought a lot about this, because I think
688
01:24:25.290 –> 01:24:29.339
PamDriesell: in the in the PC. U.S.A. There.
689
01:24:30.360 –> 01:24:33.790
PamDriesell: at the installation service there are promises made
690
01:24:34.080 –> 01:24:36.000
PamDriesell: by the congregation.
691
01:24:36.350 –> 01:24:43.560
PamDriesell: and one of the things I did as an interim was to talk to the congregation about. What do these promises mean to you.
692
01:24:43.860 –> 01:24:51.730
PamDriesell: And what is your plan for holding people accountable to them? Because I don’t think we do that well in the church. So
693
01:24:51.740 –> 01:25:01.570
PamDriesell: you know, when somebody organizes a home group to talk about, you know, the pastor. And how can we get rid of her?
694
01:25:01.880 –> 01:25:06.790
PamDriesell: We’re still like, well, why wouldn’t that person be eligible for an office in the church, you know, like
695
01:25:07.290 –> 01:25:08.330
PamDriesell: so
696
01:25:08.520 –> 01:25:16.550
PamDriesell: what what does it mean? And I don’t know what y’all’s but like. So you know, how? What does it look like to hold people accountable
697
01:25:16.935 –> 01:25:31.950
PamDriesell: members accountable to the promises they make when a pastor is installed or or ordained. And and again, it doesn’t mean that you can’t ever like I loved your rule Julie about it. One thing it might mean is.
698
01:25:32.010 –> 01:25:43.529
PamDriesell: we don’t do negative emotions by email, we do them in person. But to have leaders and and congregations really talk about
699
01:25:43.570 –> 01:25:52.790
PamDriesell: on the front end. What what does that look like in our congregation, and how do we hold people accountable to that.
700
01:25:52.790 –> 01:25:53.620
Julie Pennington-Russell: Voila.
701
01:25:53.800 –> 01:25:56.509
Melanie Marsh: Yeah, I mean, it feels like there’s something about
702
01:25:56.970 –> 01:26:05.880
Melanie Marsh: cultivating courage within the lay leadership. And and that’s a hard thing to do, I think but offering.
703
01:26:05.960 –> 01:26:32.308
Melanie Marsh: as the professional paid person in the room, opportunities for some courageous conversations in those smaller leadership groups to take place. I think, is maybe one step toward that, and and building that in from the beginning of your time and whatever ways you can, so that it’s not right at the as ending that you’re trying to like, make that happen?
704
01:26:33.020 –> 01:26:34.320
Melanie Marsh: but yeah, I think
705
01:26:34.540 –> 01:26:41.190
Melanie Marsh: it cannot only be coming from us as the pastor. This, these words. And these reminders, they
706
01:26:42.410 –> 01:26:59.327
Melanie Marsh: the when our congregants are starting to behave badly, the most effective people to stop them from behaving badly are their fellow congregation members. That can effectively happen or not depends on the health and the the
707
01:27:00.670 –> 01:27:06.379
Melanie Marsh: whatever the word is of the system. Health. I guess health is the right word of the system.
708
01:27:07.530 –> 01:27:14.799
PamDriesell: And creating a culture where that’s just built into it. So that it doesn’t.
709
01:27:14.970 –> 01:27:28.238
PamDriesell: You’re not expecting people to do that when you know only when some big things right? When is the crisis? So that it’s just kind of built into the into the culture. I think that’s a big challenge and
710
01:27:28.780 –> 01:27:31.359
PamDriesell: and worth exploring.
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Thais Carter: Another question. So a lot of the conversation around transition is about transitioning out and transitioning out. Well, we were wondering if you could talk a little bit about transitioning in, and when you’re coming into a new congregation I think now there is oftentimes like a good culture of like, let’s have an interim. Let’s have a transitional pastor before we bring a new person in. But when you are new in a role, what are the kinds of things you should be aware of coming in. How much history should you try to unpack?
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Thais Carter: Are there some keys to transitioning in? Well, that you would want to share with the group.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah, I I would say, even before you say yes to the call. Many, many conversations beyond that church. So when I was coming to Washington because of its you know, it had kind of a be fraught history. For the last 70 years I had a conversation with each of the previous pastors, the 5 pastors who had been here, each of who it’s whom it stayed, maybe 3 years. But I had.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I had conversations, you know, with them. I had conversations with a consultant that worked with this church to to deal with some issues coming in. So so you know, even before I said, yes, I really needed to kinda know what was going. But then, when I started, one thing that has been
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Julie Pennington-Russell: helpful for me I think we all understand that that first year is very much about relationships. And you’re getting to know people and hearing their stories. And you know, so it’s it’s lovely the honeymoon, maybe some people call that, but also in my writing in our weekly newsletter I stated early on like my hopes, my prayers some goals
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Julie Pennington-Russell: for the first 100 days sort of, you know, just like I mean in Washington. There’s, you know, the first 100 days is a big deal here. So so so I did that, and just kind of continue to
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Julie Pennington-Russell: communicate with the congregation what I was hoping, what I was praying where you know what, what, what some challenges I was feeling, and tried to be honest about that. That was help. Yup.
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PamDriesell: I I think a big question in this in that first time is always like
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PamDriesell: you know. Do you? Put making changes on hold for a while while. You just kinda listen and get to know, or do you come right in and do it? And I think that requires really knowing the the place and and talking with leaders, I I will say there were times where I I thought
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PamDriesell: I I wish I’d done it one way or the other around those things, right? So. But like little.
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PamDriesell: you know, even just little changes in worship that you might
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PamDriesell: think are little
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PamDriesell: can like really finding out like what that might mean, not to say that you shouldn’t go ahead and do it.
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PamDriesell: Because you know. But to really
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PamDriesell: get a read on what any kind of little, you know. Seemingly little change.
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PamDriesell: What? What that, what meaning that has in the community, I think is really important.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: well, yeah.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: I agree.
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Thais Carter: So there is another question here in the chat. When you’ve taken Sabbaticals, what have you done or found to make the most meaningful? And what did you learn or gain from them? That was more or different from what you anticipated or expected?
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Melanie Marsh: Well, I’ve never had a Sabbatical yet. I look forward to the day when I’m in a church call long enough to warrant one so I’ll let you guys take it away.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Have you had a sabbatical Pam?
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PamDriesell: I have. Yeah, yeah. Yup, I had one at Oconi, and I would I would say at my the new church. I never, never took one at Trinity.
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PamDriesell: but
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PamDriesell: I would say, in the in the category of transitions, A lot of education on the front end of that so that the congregation understands it. And again.
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PamDriesell: education coming from the lay leaders, not as much from from me, right? So that a group of lay leaders. Who can talk about what is the Sabbatical? What does it mean? What’s its purpose? Why are we supporting Pam in this? You know that that making that transition having a long runway on, you know, and everybody being clear about who’s gonna cover what? While she’s gone and making clear about whatever expectations there are in terms of communication while you’re gone.
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PamDriesell: And then the transition back is really a celebration, a dual celebration of you know not only what. How did I learn and grow, and and how was I nurtured, and but also how they did. And that was one of the things that was so. You know this, my sabbatical was at a church where I was the organizing pastor, and it was like.
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PamDriesell: talk about mommy leaving right, for you know it was like, but it was so cool at the transition back
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PamDriesell: to for them to celebrate the ways that they had stepped up. And, you know, done pastoral care for each other, and just like, really, I mean, we put things in place for the Sabbatical that ended up staying in place after I got back
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PamDriesell: which was, which was just great. And again, this was a very young church. But so I would say,
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PamDriesell: I can’t remember the exact question, but I think part of the what was meaningful for me was.
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PamDriesell: was those transitions communicating very clearly on the front end, communicating? You know.
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PamDriesell: announcing what kind of communication would happen during, and then that celebration where we both get that mutual sharing. When we got back.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Absolutely. Yeah. I’m about to take a Sabbatical in May, and I’m the first pastor here.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: maybe ever, but certainly within the last century, to take a Sabbatical at this church, because none of the pastors have stayed long enough. Except for one pastor back in the thirties, you know, when Sabbaticals really weren’t a thing. And so lots of education, lots of pastoral care. We’ve got all the PAL the preachers are lined up. We’ve got, you know, sermon series. We’ve promoted it. Well, and now I’m
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Julie Pennington-Russell: offering this series of messages on Sabbath rest, because my my prayer for the congregation is that they’ll experience that where they are, wherever they are, you know whether they’re taking vacations or working or so. Yeah.
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PamDriesell: The powerful pause.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Powerful pause, yes.
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Thais Carter: Well, let’s see, I think that’s it for questions. So
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Thais Carter: once again, I really just want to lift up how grateful we are. Pam Melanie, Julie, for your willingness to share, to share vulnerably with your own integrity. This has just been so wonderful both yesterday and today, it is a gift that you give this group to share these stories. So thank you very, very much. Everyone. One of the things that we will be sending out
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Thais Carter: addition to getting
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Thais Carter: links to the recordings. There will also be an audio transcript for those of you who experience kind of the written word a little bit easier to be able to kind of follow through and be like. Oh, I loved what she said. There, and you wanna be able to, you know, go and kind of get that exact quote. The transcripts will be available on the landing page along with the recordings. Also, there’s going to be some information sent out. Julie, I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about the contemplative
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Thais Carter: leadership stuff because we want to send that out to everybody along with the recordings. Is there anything specific you’d want to share.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Oh, absolutely
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Julie Pennington-Russell: in short, I’m I co-lead the for the Shalim Institute, the clergy, spiritual life and leadership program.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: the the program that I lead is all on. Zoom, it’s amazing. It’s a 16 month program. It’s gonna begin. The First Residency is in August, actually very end of July, beginning of August. There is a lot of money available for scholarship if if money is an issue, and so there’s a great brochure that tells all about it. But
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Julie Pennington-Russell: you know, basically I I shared yesterday that when I when I transition to Washington, I knew I needed to learn to live and lead from a different place, a more grounded place. So I went through this program in 2,017, and it was an absolute game changer for me.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: so I’m overjoyed to lead it. Co-lead it now, and would so welcome any of you who kind of need that shift, and some, you know, some grounding there, so the brochure will come out. I’ll be happy to answer any questions.
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Thais Carter: Amazing and so that everyone knows. I mean, I hope again, if this is your first time doing something with iron sharpening iron, we hope it’s not the last the next webinar we have coming up is actually on April 20 third. It’s on coaching for Congregational leaders. So many of you may have been you’ve had some experience with coaching where you’ve been coached.
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Thais Carter: But how do you take some of those skills around active listening and support, and bring that into your own supervision both with staff and lay leaders. So if you want more information about that, you can go to isi.pm. Edu, or email us at Iron Sharpening iron@ptsm.edu and I’ll be happy to send that along. But we hope that this isn’t the last thing you do to continue to invest
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Thais Carter: in your own leadership and professional development. We just think that this work is so vital and we are so privileged to get to do that with you. And alongside fabulous women like Pam and Melanie and Julie. So
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Thais Carter: have a blessed rest of your Tuesday, and thank you so much for giving us all this time over the last 2 days.
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PamDriesell: Yeah, thank, you.
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Melanie Marsh: And in honoring.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: She’ll.
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Melanie Marsh: Yeah, perfect.
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PamDriesell: Many blessings to all of you.
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Julie Pennington-Russell: Peace and grace.
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Thais Carter: Everyone.
